capital of Tskhinvali on Sunday.
new_york_times:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11georgia.html
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By ANNE BARNARD
Published: August 10, 2008
This article was reported by Andrew E. Kramer, Anne Barnard and C. J. Chivers, and written by Ms. Barnard.
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News Analysis: In Georgia Clash, a Lesson on U.S. Need for Russia (August 10, 2008)
Battle Cry: Taunting the Bear (August 10, 2008)
Candidates’ Reactions to Georgia Conflict Offer Hints at Style on Foreign Affairs (August 10, 2008)
Fear and Anger Among Those Left in Besieged City (August 10, 2008)
Times Topics: South Ossetia
Times Topics: Georgia (Country)
Times Topics: Mikheil Saakashvili
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Some of the wounded went to a hospital shelter in Tskhinvali on Sunday. More Photos »
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Liana Lazarashvili inside her damaged house in Gori, Georgia. More Photos >
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The Georgian city of Gori after Russian air attacks on Saturday. More Photos >
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Georgian soldiers near a bombed building in Gori on Saturday. More Photos >
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A Georgian man mourned a dead relative in the town of Gori, which was hit by Russian bombs, according to residents. More Photos >
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TBILISI, Georgia — Russian tanks and troops moved through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.
Georgian tanks were dug into positions outside Gori and planning to defend the city, said Shota Utiashvili, an official in Georgia’s interior ministry. He said the city of Gori was coming under artillery and tank fire. There was no immediate comment from Russia.
A senior Western official said earlier Sunday that Russian forces were seen moving over the mountains from South Ossetia into Georgian territory near a village called Racha.
A column of Russian forces was also seeking Sunday night to enter Georgian territory from Abkhazia, another separatist enclave to the west, and Abkhaz fighters were massed at the boundary line, an Abkhaz official said in an interview.
The advance appeared to answer the question on which the conflict had been pivoting: Would Russia simply occupy the two separatist territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, or would it push into Georgia, raising the possibility of a full-scale invasion?
Gori, about a 45-minute drive south from the capital of South Ossetia, Tskinvali, sits in a valley that is the main route connecting the east and west halves of Georgia.
Mr. Utiashvili said the Russians were “trying to cut the country in half.” He said that if they tried to occupy Georgia, “there will probably be guerilla warfare all over the country.”
In Washington, American officials reacted with deepening alarm to Russia’s military activities on Sunday. Georgian troops had tried to disengage, but the Russians had not allowed them.
“The Georgians told them, ‘We’re done. Let us withdraw,” one American military official said. “But the Russians are not letting them withdraw. They are pursuing them, and people are seeing this.”
The official said that it appeared that the Kremlin’s objectives, at a minimum, had extended beyond securing the enclaves and now included the destruction of the Georgian armed forces, with an aim of intensifying the domestic pressure on Saakashvili.
“The Russian have gained all of their military objectives,” the American official said. “This is not about military objectives. This is about a political objective — removing a thorn in their side.”
Russia had also doubled the number of its troops in Abkhazia to about 6,000, and Russian warships from the Black Sea fleet were off the territory’s coast. A column of Russian tanks was negotiating with Georgian officials to enter the Georgian city of Zugdidi, just south of Abkhazia, the Abkhaz official said.
Russia also bombed the Tblisi international airport shortly before Bernard Kouchner was due to arrive to mediate on behalf of the European Union. Only light damage was reported.
The senior State Department official said Sunday that the Bush administration would soon offer a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning Russian military action. Russia, a permanent member of the Council, would be sure to veto any such resolution, but the Bush administration is hoping the action could still apply more public pressure on Moscow.
“We will offer today a Security Council resolution that makes clear the international community’s condemnation of the military assault on the democratically elected government of Georgia,” said the official, Richard Grenell, the spokesman for the United States Mission to the United Nations. He said that the United States resolution will focus on Russia’s actions, will not hold Georgia equally responsible, “and will not be wishy-washy.”
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice worked through the night Saturday with other Bush administration officials on the resolution; American diplomats said that they did not want an actual Security Council vote on the resolution until Tuesday or so, the better to draw out the debate and publicly shame the Russian government. While the resolution will carry no punitive weight, the hope is that it could create more pressure for a cease-fire.
Meanwhile, Georgian and Western diplomatic officials said that Georgia had offered a cease-fire proposal to Russia, though Russian officials did not acknowledge receiving such an offer.
A senior American official said that the United States had conveyed the details of a cease-fire proposal by President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia to Russia’s acting ambassador in Washington late Saturday night, and that there briefly were indications that the Kremlin wanted to talk directly with the Georgian president.
"At midnight last night we got from the Russians that they would welcome a call from Saakashvili," the official said.
But the day passed, and through Sunday night in Georgia, the Kremlin had not taken Mr. Saakashvili’s call and negotiations had not proceeded, an advisor to Georgia’s president said.
"He has asked to talk with Putin, and he has asked to talk to Medvedev," he said, of Saakashvili. "But they have refused."
The American official also said that Georgia had managed on Sunday to provide its cease-fire proposals to Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, but there was no reply.
Mr. Kramer reported from Tbilisi and Ms. Barnard from Moscow. Ellen Barry contributed reporting from Moscow; Michael Schwirtz contributed reporting from Tbilisi, Georgia; and Helene Cooper from Washington.
Russian Ground Forces Assault Vital Georgian CityBack to Article »
Russian troops advanced on the city of Gori in central Georgia on Sunday night, for the first time directly assaulting a Georgian city with ground forces.
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Editors' Selections
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Oldest First Newest First Readers' Recommendations Editors' Selections Replies
1.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
If you (Bush Administration) undermine US power in the world a lot of really bad stuff happens.
— kent, acramento
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
2.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Russia is an aggressive bully who has continually attempted to subjugate Georgia for over 200 years. Russia needs to be shown in no uncertain terms that it cannot impose its (entirely self interested) will on neighboring states. Georgia has been a good friend of the United States and as a U.S. Citizen I would gladly go to war with Russia to protect its citizens from the vicious tyrants to the north. Sign me up.
— Thomas R.. Cardwell, Lincoln, NE
Recommend Recommended by 14 Readers
3.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Mikheil Saakashvili planned and timed this war for the olympics so Putin can be out of the country. Now many people are died, he should be tried for war crimes or at least murder. But b/c he is stooge of the US, so he is not even going to get sanctioned. In fact, it will be Russia's fault. That is the reality of the world today. Democracy, human rights, and freedom be damned. It is all a joke.
— LZ, Pennsylvania
Recommend Recommended by 38 Readers
4.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
This smells like Germany invading Poland. I pray for the sake of our world that those Democracy has entrusted to lead, prevent this from ending in something much worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
— Ron Long, Somewhere on the planet.
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
5.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
“'Georgia is a sovereign nation, and its territorial integrity must be respected,' President Bush said." Oh the irony...
— jm, BRONX
Recommend Recommended by 53 Readers
6.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Here we go .... Washington's spin doctors will launch their usual nonsense about "constructive relationship", "building trust", etc. to justify giving up to Russia's imperialist policy.Whatever, fact is Georgia was most pro-USA country in the region, and now they are going down with USA not lifting a finger. Serves well for believing that USA really cares...Anyway, USA's reputation in the region will be destroyed, because now everybody knows that their promises and support are worth nothing
— Unbiased, Peru
Recommend Recommended by 18 Readers
7.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Saakashvili learned nothing from Milosevic's mistakes, and to make it even worse, his troops executed peace-makers. He will lose the war and then Georgian people will question on why he started this adventure. With the history of oppression and rigged elections, he will soon be ousted from the office.
— Goran, Nis
Recommend Recommended by 40 Readers
8.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
This military action has a distinct parallel in the military action taken by NATO in Kosovo, Serbia. The main difference here is that the Ossetians nationality is specific to the geographical region of Ossetia, whereas the Albanians nationality is not specific to Kosovo. NATO cannot justify their actions in the Balkans and in the same breath condemn the action taken by Russia.
— SpiroGeorge, Sydney, Australia
Recommend Recommended by 54 Readers
9.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
It was about time for South Ossetia to become free from the Georgian yoke. Democracy is spreading through the Caucasus. Abkhazia should follow next.
— cabrones2, Toronto
Recommend Recommended by 20 Readers
10.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
President Bush imploring Russia to respect Georgia's territorial integrity, after he invaded Iraq and Afganistan, and Georgia invaded it's protectorate rings about as hollow as his denial that global warming is not caused by polution. I wonder what he is inhaling in Bejing? No wonder, that outside of his puppets Germany, France, Great Britan, and Poland, America's influence (and bank account) wanes by the day. Bush labels as Terrorist, just about anyone that opposes US hegomy. I wonder why the US needs 70 military bases around the world. This is probably about 65 more than any other country. For the answer, realize that Bush's conservative supporters have always trashed the UN. Their dirty secret, is that like most of his big policy/diplomatic inititives, this is based on a lie as well. The fact is, they co-opt the UN to rubber-stamp, and give cover to their commercial and military adventures around the globe, supported by those 70 bases. It now seems that maybe Russia is not going to play that game. And since most countries, like most individuals are lemmings, there could be a ground-swell of small countries disrespecting the US & UN going forward.
— Amazed in Arizona, Phoenix
Recommend Recommended by 61 Readers
11.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Very tragic but also shows reality. Bush sitting next to Puttin at the Beijing Olympics. Like the GodFather funeral, were the son shows his respect and sorrows but meanwhile has his soldiers kill potential new leaders.
— Rudolph, Manhattan
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
12.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
It's almost frustrating to track this conflict, for numerous reasons. As with all war-like situations, there are conflicting stories on each side. While one might originally find themselves siding with the Georgians at one moment, the next you hear that Georgia struck the first blow. It appears, in the end, that everybody involved is the "bad guy."That being said, I have to wonder if the Bush Administration exists outside of the realm of irony. At this very moment, we are occupying a small, defenseless nation (notably petroleum rich) which we entered without consent of the United Nations. Not only without consent, but we were specifically told NOT to do it. And then? Russia pulls a similar move (albeit one, for the sake of appearances, seems to have slightly more merit. At least their justifications exist in reality) and our administration "calls for an end to the bombing." Admittedly, I wondered to myself whether he might actually be talking about Iraq.
— Austin, Chicago, Illinois
Recommend Recommended by 38 Readers
13.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
I am very disappointed with the level of anti-Russian, Osetian, and Abhasian bias that many American publications exhibit, including NYTimes. Let's talk facts here for a change because I am not hearing them from the US media. Stalin (a Georgian) has laid the foundation for this Georgian-Osetian conflict in his time by giving Osetian territory to his Georgian fellowmen. As the Soviet Union started disintegrating, many republics felt that they deserve the right to determine their future. However, Gerogians must have been rather zealous supporters of Stalin's genocidal strategies when they brutally attacked South Osetia in 1991 in response to its declaration of independence from Georgia and the Soviet Union. Unfortunately for Georgia, their attempts to exterminate the ethnically different Osetians and occupy their territory failed due to a strong resistance put up by Osetian, Abhasian, Armenian, Chechen, and Russian fighters, among others. The recent unprovoked all-out attack by Georgia's military on the break away region the day before the Olympic games is a return to that old treacherous Stalin-inspired strategy of ethnic cleansing. What we have now is a new attempt by Georgia and the United States to exterminate the small ethnic group, deny its right for independence, and capture its territory. As an American taxpayer, you should be asking why your government has spent over $40 million of your money in equipping and training Georgian military, which has just obliterated the capital of South Osetia and killed by some estimates about 1,400 civilians. Moreover, as an American citizen, you should be asking your government and the media why it is supporting the ethnic conflict drawn up by Stalin. This is yet another failure of the US government and the media to be honest to the American people (just like they lied to us about Iraq). I do not know about you folks, but I no longer feel that I live in a democratic country with limited government ruled by the will of its people. I hope that Obama is going to bring some change to this country and further distinguishing himself from the current (and failed) Bush/McCaine-dominated group think by taking a just and pragmatic stance on the Georgian-Osetian conflict, for example. Obama should side with Russia and demand that Georgia recognize Osetia's independence and that both Russia and Georgia withdraw troops from South Osetia in a timely fashion.
— tom paine, pittsburgh
Recommend Recommended by 90 Readers
14.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
What was Georgia thinking? Remember what Russia did to the Chechens Were they so foolish to expect the West to come to their aid? Did they forget about Munich in 1938, Budapest in 1956 and the Czechs in 1968? About Haile Selassie begging at the League of nation? Or Tibet, or the rape of Nanking? Nobody come to the aid of the powerless against a world power.
— mwinog2777, Phoenix, AZ
Recommend Recommended by 20 Readers
15.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
So much for the "end of history" ...
— Bender Rodriguez, Portland, OR
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
16.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Why our journalists forget about Georgia's aggressive action against S. Ossetia taken early morning of August 8? Whatever Saakashvili calls it, he gave an order to attack Ossetia. Then assaults against Russian peacekeepers took place so Russia stroke back which is normal according to international law.Georgia is to blame for this war.
— Gogi Mirabishvili, Armenia
Recommend Recommended by 53 Readers
17.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.
— Asher, New York
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
18.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
And the Russians can't seem to understand why the Baltic states, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, et al wanted to join NATO. Russia is a democracy in name only. They are still a totalitarian state, ruled by KGB apparatchiks instead of "Communists."
— Neil, Detroit
Recommend Recommended by 14 Readers
19.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
This is an absolutely horrible situation and the US needs to do whatever it can to help an ally in need
— Samuel, Phx
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
20.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
I've always found the level of straight-faced hypocrisy exhibited by Americans terribly amusing. Consider what G.W. Bush had to say about Russian military operations in the Caucasus: "Georgia is a sovereign nation, and its territorial integrity must be respected."How unbelievably cheeky coming from the leader of a country that has carpeted the planet with close to 1,000 military bases and is actively engaged in the brutal military occupation of two such ostensibly "sovereign" nations.Was there ever a nation that invaded more countries, toppled more government or assassinated more foreign political leaders than the USA has over the last 100+ years? I very seriously doubt it.
— Jose R. Pardinas, San Diego
Recommend Recommended by 52 Readers
21.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Sakashvili, is quite a fool. As a leader he has made a great blunder that any seasoned or reasonable general and statesman would agree. It is a costly blunder first for Georgia and second for Russia. Sakashvili should pay first by stepping down. Western nations, morally, should not throw their support behind Sakashvili. This fool is not worthy of any support. This war is a great opportunity for Europe to gain the trust of the Russian people by remaining impartial and even condemning Sakashvili. Do not follow US, which has no plan or a bad plan. Also, NYTimes and other western news organizations must not sensationalize this war against Russia. lets win the hearts and minds of the Russians which matters on so many important issues and which can be quite productive.
— Borderman, US
Recommend Recommended by 35 Readers
22.
August 10th, 2008 5:05 am
Link
Why does NATO want to extend into Russia's borders if not to encircle it ?The Russians would be foolish to allow such thing to happen.Respect begets respect; Forget the expansion and Russia will calm down.Remember, Russia is the only country in the world that can do to us what we can do to them.Make friends and money, not war.
— elcojonu, California
Recommend Recommended by 33 Readers
23.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
Well, When Russia is mad.
— mike, afdadf
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
24.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
The question the readers, especially the American, should be asking is,how did Putin's Russia became so bold and carefree? The answer is - Iraq war+American SUV owners+sky high price of oil + US lead globalization = monumnetal transfer of wealth to oil producers and commodity producers = Russian assertiveness. Not to mention the famous quote by GWB about looking into the soul of Putin. Now we are faced with 1956's Hungary all over again. Thank you republican, religious rights, and the wall street's greed machine.I would hope that the religious rights along with the famous American POW will volunteer to defend the independence of Georgia, one of the staunchest supporter and member of "the coalition of the willing". After all, Georgians are Christians and subscribe to the western idea of freedom and democracy! Ok, I am being sarcastic but it is fundamentally true. In a strange way, I even feel bad for GWB because he was so resoundingly rebuffed on Georgia by Putin in Beijing. How weak we have become!!!!!This administration left us economically and morally so weak before the world that I do not know even Obama can undo the damage, unless we the people, collectively decide to wise up and shore up our declining republic.Superman, where are you?
— Nomad, dallas
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
25.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
You forgot to mention, that Georgia ruined the capital of South Osetia, killed 2 thousands civilians. That's why after that Russian army came to Tshinvali to fight for a peace.
— Natalia, New York
Recommend Recommended by 51 Readers
26.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
Poor little Gori. No photos of civilian losses and destruction on the Ossetian side though. Interesting, why?It seems the NYT is making itself a propaganda outlet again.
— DDF, Moscow
Recommend Recommended by 45 Readers
27.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
In the end, once a ceasefire is signed, I wish the South Ossetians well and hope that any international-brokered "peace treaty" will allow them to VOTE a referendum and allow them to decide their own fate. If they really want to secede from Georgia, then it should be honored by the rest of the world.Let it separate and determine its own self-rule, independence, just like Kosovo (which the USA had fervently supported for independence).
— USA Patriot, atlanta
Recommend Recommended by 17 Readers
28.
August 10th, 2008 5:10 am
Link
If the world community decides to stand by and not take any action against Russia, this will be a green light for Russia to expand their aggression in the future. Today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine or Baltic Countries. When do we draw the line? This reminds me of Nazi attack against Czechoslovakia in 1938. Will the world stand still and watch again? Or will we take action to maximize pressure on Russia in order to stop this madness before it is too late?
— Tom, Chicago
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
29.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
If you (Bush Administration) undermine US power in the world a lot of really bad stuff happens.
— kent, acramento
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
30.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Russia is an aggressive bully who has continually attempted to subjugate Georgia for over 200 years. Russia needs to be shown in no uncertain terms that it cannot impose its (entirely self interested) will on neighboring states. Georgia has been a good friend of the United States and as a U.S. Citizen I would gladly go to war with Russia to protect its citizens from the vicious tyrants to the north. Sign me up.
— Thomas R.. Cardwell, Lincoln, NE
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
31.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
“'Georgia is a sovereign nation, and its territorial integrity must be respected,' President Bush said." Oh the irony...
— jm, BRONX
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
32.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Here we go .... Washington's spin doctors will launch their usual nonsense about "constructive relationship", "building trust", etc. to justify giving up to Russia's imperialist policy.Whatever, fact is Georgia was most pro-USA country in the region, and now they are going down with USA not lifting a finger. Serves well for believing that USA really cares...Anyway, USA's reputation in the region will be destroyed, because now everybody knows that their promises and support are worth nothing
— Unbiased, Peru
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
33.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Saakashvili learned nothing from Milosevic's mistakes, and to make it even worse, his troops executed peace-makers. He will lose the war and then Georgian people will question on why he started this adventure. With the history of oppression and rigged elections, he will soon be ousted from the office.
— Goran, Nis
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
34.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
This military action has a distinct parallel in the military action taken by NATO in Kosovo, Serbia. The main difference here is that the Ossetians nationality is specific to the geographical region of Ossetia, whereas the Albanians nationality is not specific to Kosovo. NATO cannot justify their actions in the Balkans and in the same breath condemn the action taken by Russia.
— SpiroGeorge, Sydney, Australia
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
35.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
It was about time for South Ossetia to become free from the Georgian yoke. Democracy is spreading through the Caucasus. Abkhazia should follow next.
— cabrones2, Toronto
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
36.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
President Bush imploring Russia to respect Georgia's territorial integrity, after he invaded Iraq and Afganistan, and Georgia invaded it's protectorate rings about as hollow as his denial that global warming is not caused by polution. I wonder what he is inhaling in Bejing? No wonder, that outside of his puppets Germany, France, Great Britan, and Poland, America's influence (and bank account) wanes by the day. Bush labels as Terrorist, just about anyone that opposes US hegomy. I wonder why the US needs 70 military bases around the world. This is probably about 65 more than any other country. For the answer, realize that Bush's conservative supporters have always trashed the UN. Their dirty secret, is that like most of his big policy/diplomatic inititives, this is based on a lie as well. The fact is, they co-opt the UN to rubber-stamp, and give cover to their commercial and military adventures around the globe, supported by those 70 bases. It now seems that maybe Russia is not going to play that game. And since most countries, like most individuals are lemmings, there could be a ground-swell of small countries disrespecting the US & UN going forward.
— Amazed in Arizona, Phoenix
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
37.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Very tragic but also shows reality. Bush sitting next to Puttin at the Beijing Olympics. Like the GodFather funeral, were the son shows his respect and sorrows but meanwhile has his soldiers kill potential new leaders.
— Rudolph, Manhattan
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
38.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
It's almost frustrating to track this conflict, for numerous reasons. As with all war-like situations, there are conflicting stories on each side. While one might originally find themselves siding with the Georgians at one moment, the next you hear that Georgia struck the first blow. It appears, in the end, that everybody involved is the "bad guy."That being said, I have to wonder if the Bush Administration exists outside of the realm of irony. At this very moment, we are occupying a small, defenseless nation (notably petroleum rich) which we entered without consent of the United Nations. Not only without consent, but we were specifically told NOT to do it. And then? Russia pulls a similar move (albeit one, for the sake of appearances, seems to have slightly more merit. At least their justifications exist in reality) and our administration "calls for an end to the bombing." Admittedly, I wondered to myself whether he might actually be talking about Iraq.
— Austin, Chicago, Illinois
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
39.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
What was Georgia thinking? Remember what Russia did to the Chechens Were they so foolish to expect the West to come to their aid? Did they forget about Munich in 1938, Budapest in 1956 and the Czechs in 1968? About Haile Selassie begging at the League of nation? Or Tibet, or the rape of Nanking? Nobody come to the aid of the powerless against a world power.
— mwinog2777, Phoenix, AZ
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
40.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Why our journalists forget about Georgia's aggressive action against S. Ossetia taken early morning of August 8? Whatever Saakashvili calls it, he gave an order to attack Ossetia. Then assaults against Russian peacekeepers took place so Russia stroke back which is normal according to international law.Georgia is to blame for this war.
— Gogi Mirabishvili, Armenia
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
41.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
And the Russians can't seem to understand why the Baltic states, Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, et al wanted to join NATO. Russia is a democracy in name only. They are still a totalitarian state, ruled by KGB apparatchiks instead of "Communists."
— Neil, Detroit
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
42.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
This is an absolutely horrible situation and the US needs to do whatever it can to help an ally in need
— Samuel, Phx
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
43.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
I've always found the level of straight-faced hypocrisy exhibited by Americans terribly amusing. Consider what G.W. Bush had to say about Russian military operations in the Caucasus: "Georgia is a sovereign nation, and its territorial integrity must be respected."How unbelievably cheeky coming from the leader of a country that has carpeted the planet with close to 1,000 military bases and is actively engaged in the brutal military occupation of two such ostensibly "sovereign" nations.Was there ever a nation that invaded more countries, toppled more government or assassinated more foreign political leaders than the USA has over the last 100+ years? I very seriously doubt it.
— Jose R. Pardinas, San Diego
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
44.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Sakashvili, is quite a fool. As a leader he has made a great blunder that any seasoned or reasonable general and statesman would agree. It is a costly blunder first for Georgia and second for Russia. Sakashvili should pay first by stepping down. Western nations, morally, should not throw their support behind Sakashvili. This fool is not worthy of any support. This war is a great opportunity for Europe to gain the trust of the Russian people by remaining impartial and even condemning Sakashvili. Do not follow US, which has no plan or a bad plan. Also, NYTimes and other western news organizations must not sensationalize this war against Russia. lets win the hearts and minds of the Russians which matters on so many important issues and which can be quite productive.
— Borderman, US
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
45.
August 10th, 2008 8:47 am
Link
Why does NATO want to extend into Russia's borders if not to encircle it ?The Russians would be foolish to allow such thing to happen.Respect begets respect; Forget the expansion and Russia will calm down.Remember, Russia is the only country in the world that can do to us what we can do to them.Make friends and money, not war.
— elcojonu, California
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
46.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
Link
"Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili, said Russia’s ambitions were even more extensive. He declared that Georgia was in a state of war, and said in an interview that Russia was planning to seize sea ports and an oil pipeline and to overthrow his government."Say, that wouldn't be the BTC Pipeline, would it? Isn't the BTC Pipeline the second longest oil pipeline in the world? Isn't that in the the South Caucasus? Hey, wait a second, wouldn't controlling that pipeline create an incredible economic and military dominance in that part of the world for whomever controls it?People, this isn't about sovereignty or freedom or democracy or disputed territories. This is about oil, money, control and power. Or do you really think Russia is doing all this fighting about a little scrap of land and some mountains?
— Irischermann, Philadelphia
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
47.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
Link
US oil refineries import over 400,000 barrels of Russian oil every day. The demand for oil allowed Russia to rebuild its military while US military experts proclaimed the collapse of the the Soviet Union. This tragic episode underscores the absolutely crucial need for the US to focus all our resources on rebuilding our domestic infrastructure, industries, and opportunities.
— Jim Carlin, San Antonio
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
48.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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Thank you very much for such amazing overview of conflict between Russia and Georgia. While I was reading the article 2 thoughts could not left my mind and thus 2 questions appeared: first, whether average American person knows what and where Georgia and Russia are and the second how it is possible to present such pervasive data to the worldwide society?? The most disgusting thing is that people due to the lack of knowledge, political experience and some historical circumstances believe all that rubbish not even trying to understand the situation. Thank you to one of the most respected US newspapers for such “well-done job” .Julia MeshcheryakovaRussia
— Julia M., RF
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
49.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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In such a crisis of Global warming, genocide, Middle Eastern unrest, the HIV crisis, etc., etc, etc, do weneed another war? People...grow up!
— Dr. Lisa Cavalier, MD, Gravenhurst
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
50.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph; is that good men do nothing."
— P.A.Pointon, USA
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
51.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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Well now the consequences of George Bush's disastrous policies in are becoming clear. The US has exhausted it's financial, moral and military capacity in the quagmire known as Iraq. The United states may win the battle in Iraq but it will certainly lose the larger strategic war in the Middle East and Central Asia. The outlines of the strategic defeat it has suffered will become clear in the months and years to come. What the Russians are now doing in Georgia is only the first act in a broader strategic global battle for resources by China, Russia, the EU and the US.With the increasing stranglehold on oil and gas that Russia is achieving coupled with a failed Middle east policy and increasing dependence on foreign oil, people will remember the "good old days" when you could get gas for $4 a gallon.Of course the "good" news is that McCain promises more of the same failed policies.It was very touching to see GWB watching an Olympic event while Putin was on the war front. It was quite emblematic of how weak the United states has become.
— George Ennis, Toronto, Canada
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
52.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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The european union and the united nations should field this problem and not attempt to pass the buck to the U.S. For once let them do something, after all this is in their own back yard.
— nobrainer, oklahoma
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
53.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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Russia involved in another war of aggression? Who wouldhave ever imagined? It's kind of like China and Tibet,America and Iraq, Japan and The Philippines, Germany and Poland all over again.The more it changes, the more it stays the same. Thereis one important lesson we learn from history: Thosewho wish for change invariably live to regret it.
— Tom Colton, Arlington, Washington USA
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
54.
August 10th, 2008 8:56 am
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Every large country does this.; Even America. America became mostly by what it is now through force, in the name of 'In God we Trust'. We don't relate overpowering a people if we feel that it's in our ruling body of government. As we all know History paints a rosey picture for the Victors.Its a hard balance to equate, but the God we rely on is the same God that will have the last answer. One must give back what one has stolen and recompensate to the full measure.
— david, houston texas
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
55.
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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Dream world: when so called leaders can find some way to resolve conflicts besides bombings, killing off soldiers, terrorizing common people in the homes. When do the wise men appear to come up with imaginative solutions instead of brutal subjugation? Leaders have armies so they don't have to do their jobs well by thinking instead of killing.
— rowdy, Florida
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
56.
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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Russia will overwhelm Georgia militarily to teach its former satellites a lesson. The The impotent West will look on concerned only with its supplies of energy. After Georgia, will Ukraine be next?
— Arthur Lieber, Switzerland
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
57.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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Everything has finally come to this; all the consequences we must face after Bush, or maybe Clinton, opened the pandora box in Kosovo. I am illustrating here our greatest catch 22:If US and NATO do not intervene then we will send a clear message everywhere that being a democracy is a suicide. The west did intervene in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, and Albania, but not in Georgia which works super hard to be democratic and in a sense, capitalist ??. And unlike the Russians who return the favor to those who support them in South Ossetia, the west tells their ally, Georgia, who fought with them (in Iraq) to roll over and die.This option will risk sending not only Georgia but the rest of the newly independent and democratic ex-Soviet satellites like Ukraine and Baltic countries back to Russian sphere and igniting a new Cold War like tension.But if US or Europe choose to intervene then we will ultimately confront what we desperately tried to avoid during the Cold War: war with Russia.In my personal opinion, I will say, yes NATO has to intervene. But before sending our troops to Georgia we should first send Iraqi, Afghani and Kosovar troops. If they were truly liberated from tyrants then it is high time for them to return the favor.
— Lars, germany
Recommend Recommended by 15 Readers
58.
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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Since the days of America's involvement in Vietnam, I have in frustration avoided New York Times articles about international conflicts because they are so poorly conceived and written. The present article about the Russian invasion of South Ossetia is one such example: One simply does not include information about another area of Russian involvement--in this case Abkhasia--in a topic sentence about the primary area of present interest, South Ossetia--especially without reference to a map that includes both. Mentioning Abkhasia should be reserved for a separate paragraph, if at all, and should include a description of its location if no reference to its position on a map is available.These are the most basic principles of teaching, which, after all, is the newspaper's primary function. The "gray lady" is no less obligated to follow these century-old rules than any other news source.
— Richard Bloom, Aston, PA
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
59.
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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I have been traveling to Georgia since 1990. It has been clear for some time that the Russian government does not want to let the former-Soviet states live peaceably and independently. Georgia is a sovereign nation. Both Abkhazia and So. Ossetia are part of Georgia, although there are disputes in those lands. Russia arms and backs the separatists in both areas and does all it can to promote instability. Now there is war. I am ashamed of both our country and all western countries for not doing more than "diplomatic handwringing" to quote Richard Holbrooke, our former-UN Ambassador. He also writes that Russia has been trying to destabilize Georgia for years. Russia is carrying out military action on the territory of a sovereign country, bombing, moving troops, bringing ships to a port. As the Georgians in Tbilisi wrote in candles last night at a peaceful demonstration "Stop Russia!" Appeasing Putin and the Russian Bear serves none of us. Who will be next? Pray for peace and all the suffering people in this war. Georgia has territorial integrity, as to all sovereign nations. Will we only serve up words in her defense? Stop Russia!
— Janet, New Castle, DE
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
60.
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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Bush and McCain's simple-minded nostrum that Georgian sovereignty must be respected begs the question; for although Georgia aspires to exercise sovereignty over Abkhazia and South Ossentia, it does not and did not do so.It is obvious that the Georgians overestimated their backing from the West, no doubt prompted by accepting Bush's delusion that NATO could be expanded until Russia was completely surrounded. It is now apparent, however, that when Bush looked into the Russian Bear's eyes and thought he understood the creature, the Bear had other ideas.Now that Russia has choked the life out of Bush's fantasy, it is time that our politicians, Republican and Democratic, take a more realistic view of our limitations in this world. The alternative is to continue to induce others to follow the foolish path the Georgians took this week, a path that may cost them their country.
— Richard Friedman, Wilmette, IL
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
61.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 9:09 am
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It appears that the government of Georgia miscalculated -- big time. This provides an excellent opportunity to consider another subject: the limits of US power and influence in a rapidly-changing world.
— jhannah3, Staten Island
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
62.
August 10th, 2008 9:14 am
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I think NYT must public not only photos of Georgia but also pictures of ossetian nation's tragedy, more 2000 killed civilians!!!By the way, USA must remember about Iraq and American "democratic" methods of fight for a peace.
— Asya, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 18 Readers
63.
August 10th, 2008 9:14 am
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There is also an oil pipeline at stake. Where there's oil, there's always fire.
— Becca, Memphis TN
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
64.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 9:14 am
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Hmmm, didn't Russia condemn our invasion of Iraq? "Nothing jusifies the use of violence over diplomacy," I seem to recall them saying. I guess all countries have at least two sets of standards - one for other countries and one for themselves. I feel for the people or Georgia. Russia is an aggressive bully (and a hypocrite) and should be seen as such.
— Matt, New York City
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
65.
August 10th, 2008 9:14 am
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Russia is attacking it's former country men ?Unprovoked acts of war do require an international response.Failure to defend a freed country is to align with the aggressor.Not an easy choice, but a necessity for the free world ; if we truely believein freedom.God help us all.
— P.A.Pointon, USA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
66.
August 10th, 2008 9:14 am
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Where are photos from Tshinvali and refuges camps?From you article we see only georgian causalities.
— Denis, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 24 Readers
67.
August 10th, 2008 9:19 am
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Yet another result of the inept foreign policy of the Bush administration. At what point did the Georgians believe it was a good idea to launch an invasion against S. Ossetia, a republic with a large Russian population that boke away from Georgia and has been defacto independent for 16 years? Were not the ramifications of allowing Kosovo independence made abundantly clear? S. Ossetia had broken away from Georgia far before Kosovo had from Serbia; do we (the US) think we can act with total inpunity on the planet? At what point do the people of this country think they will experience a backlash for hypocracy enforced through unchecked military power? Ignorance of history, politics, sociology, and (real)psychology have left most of our population dangerously blind. We should all just be thankful that NATO membership for Georgia was denied or we would be committed to militarily protecting this absurdly stupid attack and the inevitable (happy to for the opportunity) Russian response. If not for the wisdom of other NATO allies in rejecting Georgia we'd all have to spend the next few nights or weeks wondering if there would be another dawn for humankind... I have no desire to live again through a time when nuclear annihalation is an immediate real possibility. The big question is whether we will be able to survive the last 4 months of an administration that seems adept at creating chaos throught the world.
— James Ranni, Japan
Recommend Recommended by 21 Readers
68.
August 10th, 2008 9:19 am
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If the world community decides to stand by and not take any action against Russia, this will be a green light for Russia to expand their aggression in the future. Today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine or Baltic Countries. When do we draw the line? This reminds me of Nazi attack against Czechoslovakia in 1938. Will the world stand still and watch again? Or will we take action to maximize pressure on Russia in order to stop this madness before it is too late?
— Tom, Chicago
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
69.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 9:19 am
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In the end, once a ceasefire is signed, I wish the South Ossetians well and hope that any international-brokered "peace treaty" will allow them to vote a referendum and allow them to decide their own fate. If they really want to secede from Georgia, then it should be honored by the rest of the world.Let it separate and determine its own self-rule, independence, just like Kosovo (which the USA had fervently supported for independence).
— USA Patriot, atlanta
Recommend Recommended by 17 Readers
70.
August 10th, 2008 9:19 am
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Poor little Gori. No photos of civilian losses and destruction on the Ossetian side though. Interesting, why?It seems the NYT is making itself a propaganda outlet again.
— DDF, Moscow
Recommend Recommended by 18 Readers
71.
August 10th, 2008 9:19 am
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You forgot to mention, that Georgia ruined the capital of South Osetia, killed 2 thousands civilians. That's why after that Russian army came to Tshinvali to fight for a peace.
— Natalia, New York
Recommend Recommended by 16 Readers
72.
August 10th, 2008 9:34 am
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While I understand Russia's desire to keep the integrity of their territory, but in this case the reaction to Georgia's incursion was very extreme. Vladimir Putin is on record of wanting to create a new Soviet Union. What better way then trying to tame the Caucasus Mountain region. However, Russian history has show that Russia and the Soviet Union have failed to control this area. By moving ethnic Russians to the area, Russia can claim they are defend their people, However, Russian history has also shown that the Russian people look down upon those who are not ethnic Russians, especially those from the Caucasus region. Nothing good will come of this.As for the EU and US helping out Georgia; there are a few reasons why this is not happening:1. Europe and the US do not want a war with Russia. Russia controls the vast majority of gas and oil flowing to Europe. A war with Russia would make the current oil situation much worse. Though, a major pipeline does pass through Georgia and the impact of this war will come to light when the commodity markets open on Monday.2. Georgia was the aggressor. They were claiming the disputed region as their own and they sent the troops in first. Unfortunately, the Russian reaction was like using gasoline to put out a fire.3. There is no oil in Georgia.4. The UN will be blocked by helping out because Russia has veto power on the Security Council. They will use it just like the Soviet Union did during the Cold War.George Bush and Vladimir Putin were seen talking at the Olympics Opening Ceremony. I certainly think they were not talking about the awe aspiring experience. If nothing else, even though Vladimir Putin is no longer president of Russia; he has never left power.While this dispute is internal; it does say that Russia will invade a sovereign nation for their own interests. Let hope that they do not have lofty goals and start taking over each one of the former Soviet Union states; if they were to do so, none of them can stand up to the Russian armed forces. People in Ukraine and the Baltic States may have a cause to worry.
— nmetro, Longmont, Colorado
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
73.
August 10th, 2008 9:45 am
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As a Russian citizen I would prefer Russia to be a neutral country like, say, Denmark or Switzerland. This is not so, alas, but in the situation with S. Ossetia Russia probably had no other choice. Imagine the world with neutral Russia and the US with its absolute power to do what it wishes in any corner of the world without a second thought. I don't think Saakashvilli could start bombarding Tshinvali without prior notice of his master, the US intelligence, why didn't they talk him out of this horrific act? Probably because for paranoic US military and politics it doesn't look horrific at all?
— eclipse59, Novosibirsk, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 18 Readers
74.
August 10th, 2008 10:00 am
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World hopes that this is not the repeat of Afghanistan by Russians.This reminds us of Soviet actions in East Eurpean countries during cold war.Since Georgia has agreed to cease fire and talk peace, Russians should withdraw and resolve the issues with interlocutors.World does not want one more ware theater please.
— Jitendra Desai, Surat - Gujarat- India
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
75.
August 10th, 2008 10:04 am
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Bush and Putin laughing and sharing a personal moment in Beijing while the tanks rolled into Georgia, and the planes bombed away. The bombing shattered yet another ally's aspiration for democracy, as the US betrays another client state. The debate quickly became whether Georgia's troops in Iraq would be released to assist in defending against the invasion by Russia.Since Georgia had deployed the third largest number of troops to Iraq (after Great Britain)to assist Bush in that battle for democracy, they may have felt particularly unprepared to defend against the Russian invasion. Or perhaps they were assured that the US would support their efforts to suppress the breakaway region when they launched their offensive against those insurgents.Whatever. Either the US leaders made assurances to Georgia they had no intention of keeping, or they appeased Putin as a trade-off for Kosovo. Either way, those aspiring to democracy in fights to throw off the yokes of foreign oppressors got a rude wake-up call today. The US is not a friend of democracy when other more drilling issues supercede.
— anyfreeman, san francisco
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
76.
August 10th, 2008 10:18 am
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Georgia is a small country, with limited military and economic resources. The invasion of South Ossetia, resulting in the demolition of its main city, Tskhinvali, a reported 1500 civilian deaths, and thousands of refugees (nearly all fleeing to Russia), has all the earmarks of a large-scale, highly organized and lengthily prepared operation. The timing, coincident with the first day of the Olympiad, when Russia's strongman Putin was being entertained in Beijing, was likely no accident. Since we --the U.S.-- have since 2004 embraced Georgia has a close ally and client state --a quid pro quo involving an intensive build-up of Georgian military and economic capacity (in exchange for 2,000 Georgian troups in Iraq, plus a conduit for piping natural gas from Central Asia to the West, thus bypassing Russia), it strains credulity to assume Georgia could have mounted such a concerted, large scale military action unbeknownst to ourselves. If so, then we were almost certainly in a position either to veto the plan, encourage it, or pretend not to notice. One assumes we gave it the green light.If it turns out that we have backed this action, then the truth will out, and the whole world will know. In that case we will either have to eat crow, and fail to protect an ally from consequences for which we are partly responsible --thus further jeopardizing our already shaky honor and respect in the world; or, we will allow our commitment to draw us into yet another foreign adventure that risks becoming a morass.
— David Isenbergh, Washington, DC
Recommend Recommended by 28 Readers
77.
August 10th, 2008 10:48 am
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Russians have dominated the Caucasus for two hundred years - that Russia chooses to reassert this reality should not surprise the world - the habits of the past die hard - like empires. Some speak of Munich and the like, but that is not accurate. The Kremlin is not unlike Germany after World War I - it saw its power utterly collapse, but unlike Germany's, it collapsed without a shot. Say what you will of Afghanistan - it had been over for sometime when the USSR dissolved: The imposing edifice rolled up like a traveling carnival's tents and vanished almost overnight - this would be far more fertile grounds for conspiracy theory than any "stab in the back" - any Russian government, goaded by this past humiliation, would gladly strive to reassert itself. That Georgia imagined Moscow would not welcome this opportunity and seize it with both hands was insipid. That the West feels dismayed means nothing - the more we wring our hands, the better Russia's rulers will feel. All this - empire, conflict for resources, these resentments two centuries old - will remain with us long after the final salvoes light the skies of South Ossetia.
— enarcadiaego, Augusta, GA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
78.
August 10th, 2008 10:52 am
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i cant believe it that the western media is demonizing Russia for being agressive while it was Georgia who started the agression against an autonomous region of south otessia.South Otessians are Russian citizen and russia has the right to defend them.I wonder what would be the U.S response if some foreign power attacks Puerto Rico?. Let the russians take back their land of south otessia and abkhazaria because if we hold a referndum any day, these people would want to joi Russia happily.
— billy, bensonhurst
Recommend Recommended by 22 Readers
79.
August 10th, 2008 10:54 am
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America must act strongly against Russia's disproportionate aggression, otherwise Russia will do the same in Ukraine, Poland, and Romania where I have observed it is already instigating trouble and fear.
— Chris, Dearborn, MO
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
80.
August 10th, 2008 11:03 am
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This reminds me of the little kid who picked a fight with a bully, got his butt whupped and then went crying home to mom. Sakashvili is a fool if he thought Russia would stand idly by and the US would come to his aid with anything but words. It will be interesting to see if Russia goes beyond the disputed areas and tries to take advantage of this conflict more by entering into Georgia and overthrowing Sakashvili. My guess is probably not but there is no question Russia is also sending a message to the west to back off in their backyard. So far, I don't think Russia has done anything worse than any other country would do in their position and perhaps this was somehow necessary to finally draw the line.
— DJ, Portland
Recommend Recommended by 24 Readers
81.
August 10th, 2008 11:13 am
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Dear readers, the problem of this conflict is that it is a conflict of politicians and have nothing to do with the real people. Look, all of us are desinformed, I have a lot of friends in Russia, Georgia, Osetia and US and all of them have different information from the officials according their global interests, in Geaorgia on the TV there are only Georgian News channels on, Russians shown as an enemies of Georgian nation, in Russia, Russian channels tells that only about human deasaster and nothing about real situation and activity, in US everybody balme Russia as the aggresor. Where is the trouth? The only conclusion I can do is that it is not necessary to look for trouth in official press. Different countries shows that what they would like to see. To my mind the trough is that: 1. Saakashvilli showed his real face of murder, now even americans have no doubts about this. 2. Politicaly Russians was not strong enough to solve this problem and made a lot of stupid mistakes. 3. US still the same... don't care about local people, just take care about the oil and other interests. It's a pitty to live in this world of liers:) but we have to.
— temkin5, Moscow
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
82.
August 10th, 2008 11:16 am
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Georgian's are victims of a cruel hoax. In no way would they have attacked South Ossetia without clear and unequivocal encouragement from the West. Alas,they probably now realize they've just been duped into testing a hypothetical line on the sand. Russia should punish Georgia by borrowing from the 'shock and awe' tactics of the US military in Iraq and 'decapitate' Georgia's leadership. Almost 2000 innocent South Ossetians dead. It's Russia's 9/11.
— arnie, Manila
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
83.
August 10th, 2008 11:17 am
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As usual, the NY Times promotes government propaganda in international affairs. Thousands of South Ossetians have been slaughtered by Georgian troops. Where are their pictures and stories?The Georgians planned and invaded South Ossetia stupidly believing that with Putin at the Olympics the Russians would be caught flatfooted. Surprise, the Russians recovered quickly and have decided to redraw the boundaries supported by the separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Clearly, the Russians are going about destroying the $40 million of military industrial complex that Georgia was given by the U.S. as additionally punishment. Well, authoritarian Saakashvili who had his security troopes attack and kill protesters is going to deal with the Kremlin's wrath all his own. The U.S. and Europe aren't coming to his rescue. The pro-Lebanese government learnt that lesson the hard way not too long ago.Last thing, the Bush and subsequent administrations need to stop trying to encircle the Russians' militarily. They have nuclear weapons also. Try acting like their friends and not their enemies.
— Simon, Tampa
Recommend Recommended by 16 Readers
84.
August 10th, 2008 11:17 am
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Georgia needs our help, and we US should help them any way we can. They stand otherwise little chance in this unequal fight.The neocons loved to criticize the western powers's bland response to Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia. Isn't it ironic how quiet the neocons are now, faced with a real bully (not an invented one like Saddam). Can't hear a peeping sound from them.
— Andrei Radulescu-Banu, Lexington, MA
Recommend Recommended by 9 Readers
85.
August 10th, 2008 11:27 am
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The current round of hostilities was suddenly started by Georgia, on the opening day of Olympics they leveled the Ossetian city with Katyushas; 1500 dead, and they are not shown on TV, only the Russian retaliation. And this attack came a month after Ms Rice visit. A closer comparison of Russian reaction is with NATO interfering in Yugoslavia, not with Germany invading Poland. And, of course, there is Iraq, which was invaded for no reason, but then one bad deed does not justify another, perhaps just takes away a moral right to criticize.Whatever the Russian motives were before the war, they were providing peace in the region or 15 years now, and bad peace is better than good war.A big question is why did Georgia attack? I seems Georgian president got a bit light headed after getting so much US attention, in terms of high state visits, praises and, most importantly, arms supplies.
— Max, Chicago
Recommend Recommended by 16 Readers
86.
August 10th, 2008 11:27 am
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So what can be done? Well, as it usually happens with Realpolitik, nothing can be done in the short term, no matter how unfair or unjust it seems. Georgia has already lost South Osetia and Abkhazia, and there's no turning back. There will be some face-saving moments and statements, but clearly there will be no return to the status-quo.In the long term, it would be useful for us citizens to recognize that we are at the heart of most solvable conflicts. We want cheap gas, powerful cars, we want diamond rings, we want unique ivory pieces, and we want our pension funds, which are guaranteed by shares in huge corporations that are forced to grow no matter what in order to please shareholders who happen mostly to be ... us.Georgia certainly was a solvable conflict. If Georgia wasn't the stage of new oil pipes that route petroleum from the Caspian sea, neither the US nor Europe would have any interest in that country (much less having it joining NATO), and its government would have thought twice about violating a delicate status-quo. And Russia would have no interest in destabilizing a border country that poses no thread (no NATO membership - no threat).Many of the current conflicts are simply resource conflicts - either for petroleum, gas, ores, whatever. Imagine for a moment what would happen if all our energy needs were served by solar energy. Would there so many tensions in the Middle East? Would Irak have invaded Kuwait? Would the US have invaded Irak? Would Iran have rearmed as a consequence? Would Russia be able to hold European countries hostages using their gas supply? Would the US have so many bases that basically guarantee the unencumbered flow of raw materials to the US economy?.As citizens, we should go deeper into issues and require from our governments real solutions instead of worthless posturing and hypocritical excuses and spinning. Until we do, we are as guilty as those who give the orders.
— Simplicio, Madrid
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
87.
August 10th, 2008 11:33 am
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Russia's crude imitation of the "shock and awe" in Georgia is basically modelled after the NATO military action against former Yugoslavia in the late 1990s. Just as the NATO aerial bombardment of Serbia proper compelled Milosevic to withdraw from Kosovo, in Kremlin's calculus, the overwhelming Russian military intervention in Georgia will force Tbilisi to abandon hopes of ever restoring control over breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In pursuing this objective the Russian military planners took advantage of the virtual absence of air defense in Georgia. With open skies Georgia is extremely vulnerable to Russia's strategic bombers. If Georgia had a modern air defense system the outcome could have been far from certain. Now it remains unclear whether Moscow will decide to push beyond South Ossetia and into Georgia proper or remain satisfied with consolidating control over Georgia's breakaway regions. In any case, the disproportionate use of force by Russia against a vastly inferior neighbor with democratic aspirations and pro-Western orientation will spell out important geopolitical consequences for the rest of the post-Soviet space. The reputation of the United States as a reliable ally has been reduced to zero overnight. After developing close relations with the Georgian government, praising its progress in democratic achievements and even claiming that it is a "beacon of freedom" in the post-Soviet world, the Bush administration decided to simply turn its back on a loyal ally in need. This provides food for thought to the former Warsaw Pact countries, Baltic states and Ukraine. The cowardice and indecision of U.S. and European policymakers will only embolden Russia to sow more mischief in hopes of expanding its influence, if necessary, by military force. Sadly contrary to the Western demagoguery about the primacy of democratic values, the might still makes right in this world. The Georgians will extract corresponding lessons from the current crisis and Tbilisi may opt to reorient itself geopolitically in the end.
— Parnavaz I, Baltimore
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
88.
August 10th, 2008 11:37 am
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Thank God NATO hasn't admitted Georgia as a member. Canyou imagine the dance of the dilettantes in theWhite House and Brussels to explain why they shouldn'tintervene especially if Russia threatens to turn offthe energy spigot to Europe. The Western leaders shouldcontinue to concentrate on the Olympics and simply bleattheir disapproval.
— R Graham, Ottawa, Ont
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
89.
August 10th, 2008 11:51 am
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Russia is behaving as a vindicative and greedy spouse in a bad divorce. To restore its humiliated pride, it is bent on punishing Georgia as it interprets Georgia's leaving the union and turning to the West to be a betrayal. If into an assessment of the situation, one throws in Russia's self-mythologizing a mystical specialness with its delusions of "Russian soul" that keeps it apart and above the rest of the world and therefore above the rules of the world, Georgian prospects are not good indeed. The most important point for Russia right now is to prevent Georgia from flourishing--peace is the last thing on Russia's neurotic mind.
— Veronica, Seattle
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
90.
August 10th, 2008 11:51 am
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No mention of the approximately 75 million dollars the US has been giving Georgia since 2002, 10-20 million more per year for militiary expenses, the over 295 million lump-sum Condi Rice is supposed to have given them, the military we have there training the Georgian army, the 1,000 Israeli contractors, the CIA's acknowledged presence and purported 50 billion dollar budget and their help in instigating the "Rose Revolution" . No mention of the corruption of the government and electoral system? No mention of the pipeline we're guarding. No mention that we're brazenly doing all this right on Russia's borders. No mention of the UN resolution Russia sought to head off a Georgian attack on the independent provinces, a resolution opposed by the US and UK?Pat Buchanan wrote an article about the potential consequences of our continual pushing Russia's back against the wall a few months ago. If all of this is true, the Times should address it; it not it should debunk it. The press isn't fulfilling its responsiblity.
— Nancy, Nancy from Philadelphia
Recommend Recommended by 22 Readers
91.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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The Russian empire is alive and well, much to the chagrin of our national leader. Joseph Stalin seems to have a smile on his face. Dejavu , the world returns to the nineteen twenties and we as "baby boomers" have little to show for our troubles. All the roads, cars, debts , and free this's and that's , seem to point to a generation filled with meaningless trivia, for the world is returning quickly to bygone times and power structures that predate our existence.We have not only lost our way, but like often happens in such cases, the rest of the world has moved on. When the president of Georgia was on the phone with Putin, he told Putin that he would incur the wrath of the US and Europe. Putin's reply , at that moment , is apparently not "news fit to print", but could have spurred him on to invade.
— robert of Savannah, Savannah
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
92.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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I usually read the Times for its journalistic reliability and honesty but after reading this nonsense I’m beginning to doubt its credibility. When Americans are doubted in all over the world of its intelligence all should be blamed on this mass media what is written and fed to us, this is no where to be called legitimate coverage! Without sufficient information this should not be allowed to be printed, this is unacceptable.
— Levon M., Bronx,NY
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
93.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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Saakashvili makes big mistake. It was fool decision - to attack osetians.But Georgia needs american help. Georgia is most pro-USA country in the region. HELP THEM!!!
— ukrainian78, Ukraine
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
94.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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The story reads, "they were angry at the United States and EU for not coming to Georgia’s aid."When will people appreciate that US foreign policy is framed in the self-interest of those who control the US? Americans live in a great lie of freedom. It is Orwellian.
— Darster, Birmingham
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
95.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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What you know about it? All is incorrect info because the war open Georgia not Russia. Do not forget gentlemen, tell lies more than ever to bring good. Do not forget that this all the time and the strongest will win! but the mixture will be the last one who wins. After all land belongs to God. but tomorrow planet avenge us even stronger for our greed. Greed for power and money.
— Certan, Moldova
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
96.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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Natalia from New York, I think you misread the statistics. If 1,500 to 1,800 (not 2,000) were killed in South Ossetia, they were killed by Russians and Georgians both—from what I’ve read in articles and seen in photographs, the targets of Russian bombardments weren’t very particular. But according to the latest article that we have here, the 1,500 casualties figure no longer seems credible:“Mr. Putin said that dozens of people had been killed in South Ossetia and hundreds wounded, and tens of thousands were reported to be fleeing. Georgia’s health minister said that more than 80 people had been killed, including 40 civilians who died in airstrikes in Gori, a city north of Tbilisi. Another Georgian official said at least 800 people, almost all of them civilians, had been injured. Each side’s figures were impossible to confirm independently, as was an earlier claim released by South Ossetians and repeated by some Russian officials that 1,500 people had been killed in the territory.”
— ejpiller, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
97.
August 10th, 2008 12:26 pm
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Georgia's move into the region of dispute was ill conceived and apparently based on a ludicrous hope that Russia would standby and do nothing. In light of Putin's desire to change the leadership in Georgia, it should come as no surprise that he used this incursion as an excuse to launch a counter incursion. Based on the size and speed of the Russian attack, it would appear that Russia had been preparing for just such a move many months in advance. The Georgian hierarchy played right into Putin's hands. Meanwhile, the US (bogged down in foreign misadventure and teetering on financial collapse)looks on helplessly as an emboldened Russia (besotted with oil wealth, a pernicious nationalism, and its old imperialistic dreams) grows stronger and more malignant in its disregard for rule of law with each passing day. Sooner or later, the Western world will be forced to deal with this menace.
— Brodston, Gretna, Nebraska
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
98.
August 10th, 2008 12:33 pm
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I just do not like that Georgia sends troop to SO when every one is watching Olympic opening ceremony. It shows this is premeditated.
— Sean, New York City
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
99.
August 10th, 2008 12:33 pm
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This situation is more than just about the specific land in question. It's also about Bush and Company trying to create a noose of allies and weapons around the former Soviet Unions neck. Once again our country is indirectly involved in the death of innocents.When the Soviet Union collapsed we should have rushed in to cement our friendship and give it aid. Instead we have the likes of Abe Foxman, High Priest and King of the ADL, vetoing any attempts to lift the Jackson-Vanik amendment which would have greatly aided Russia in her transition to democracy and from economic hardship. The reason for that amendment is long gone. It was only spite and vengeance from a small and powerful minority that has kept it in place all this time.
— Steve, Hoboken
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
100.
August 10th, 2008 1:15 pm
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I wonder whether "anti-war" groups will march denouncing the Russian invasion of a sovereign state.Probably not. It would be against the orders of the Kremlin.
— Edward, New York
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
101.
August 10th, 2008 1:27 pm
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Bush runs foreign policy based personal relationships with disastrous results. He looked into the eyes of Putin and failed to see an evil man who wants to ressurect the evil empire. Bush has been way too lenient with Pakistan because of his personal relationship with a flawed leader Musharaff even though Pakistan is the main hub of global terrorism. Bush has been wrong in terms of his policies towards Cuba, Venezuela and Iran (because of his attitude towards the leaders of Cuba, Venezuela and Iran).The U.S. needs polices based on a well thought out strategic vision and not based on personal liking or disliking of foreign leaders by the U.S. president.
— Sam, NJ
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
102.
August 10th, 2008 1:27 pm
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Bush to Putin: pot calling kettle black.
— DaveD, WI
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
103.
August 10th, 2008 1:27 pm
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On August 8th Saakashvili ordered to invade S.Ossetia and as a result hundreds of people have been killed including several Russian peace-keepers who have prevented another war in the region for 15 years. How was Russia supposed to react? What was Saakashvili thinking? Did he hope his American masters would protect him and support his adventure? The Georgian president started this bloody adventure that's why he is a war criminal responsible for these casualties, but those in Russia who ordered to bomb civilians are also criminals. Shame on you, politicians, who started a war between the two peoples, Russian and Georgians, who have lived together in friendship for centuries no matter what Georgian propaganda says. And shame on you, journalists, who participate in propaganda and write one-sided stories.
— Vadim, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
104.
August 10th, 2008 1:30 pm
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"about time for S. Ossetia to become free of the Georgian yoke." says one poster. I must ask: is Chechnya free now from the Russian yoke?
— DaveD, WI
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
105.
August 10th, 2008 1:34 pm
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Prime Minister Putin views the Georgian claims to the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia to be invalid. I have one word for Mr. Putin's hypocrisy--Chechnya, which, ironically, is immediately to the northeast of South Ossetia. Current U.S. foreign policy strategy and tactics have made us political eunuchs in response to this dangerous threat to world security. Russia has made it clear that it wants to return back to the old Cold War stance, in its rhetoric and actions, with one glaring distinction. Russia has taken a page from China's playbook, in that it wants to be a capitalist nation without democracy. NATO, EU and every other Western democracy has to tread carefully yet forcefully now. All it takes is one comment or action which can drive this regional conflict into a full-fledged world war.
— Jamal Barnes, Chicago IL
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
106.
August 10th, 2008 1:34 pm
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BEFORE you pick a fight with Russia, make sure friends - and preferably a lot of them - will come to your assistance. Wishful thinking does not help versus a superior military force.
— Cyril, Gulf Breeze, FL
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
107.
August 10th, 2008 1:39 pm
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“We are not at war with the Georgian state,” Nagovitsyn, the Russian defense official, said. But he said Russia would send as many reinforcements as necessary to “the zone of conflict" It looks like the Russian found the words smith the Bush people used to describe our invasion of Iraq and other underhanded movements. Bush talk about Iran and forget Russia's need to reunite the USSR.
— the mailman, Phoenix AZ
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
108.
August 10th, 2008 1:40 pm
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Georgia shmorgia - if they're foolish enough to expect no reaction from Putin, and immediate logistical support from West, NATO & US shouldn't waste time grooming them as a potential ally.Russian history and her strategic considerations trump all other factors in local conflicts.Western strategy to contain the Russians via NATO and neighboring client states is a sound policy, but within limits: Mikheil Saaskashvili has just demonstrated what those limits are.
— decree nisi, off island
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
109.
August 10th, 2008 1:55 pm
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Putin has sent a loud and clear message to President Bush. It's time for NATO to re-think it's continued expansion right up to the border's of Russia. Georgia needs to realize that all offers of economic and military aid aside, American interests are primarily mercantile and self-serving, and they reflect a strong desire to surround Russia, via her former Soviet Republics, with American power and dominance. The goal, a de-fanged Russia, and one which will sell it's oil and gas at the right price. Putin realizes this. As for American interests being self-serving, we just need to look to China, where America has no problems being in bed with a country and a form of government far more autocratic and dictatorial then Russia's. The bottom line, the former Soviet Republics have all been sent a message. You have to make peace with Russia, like it or not, and forget the siren call of supposed wealth and riches from the West. It's the call of opportunists, and when push comes to shove, they won't be there for you anyway.
— Joseph, Miami, FL
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
110.
August 10th, 2008 2:01 pm
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Let it separate and determine its own self-rule, independence, just like Kosovo (which the USA had fervently supported for independence).
— Sergey, Russia Novokuznetsk
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
111.
August 10th, 2008 2:06 pm
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Maybe we should let the Europeans handle this one. No matter what the US does, we're going to be blamed for being the evil doer.
— James, New York
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
112.
August 10th, 2008 2:29 pm
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where is the Administration? Where is Sec State Condi Rice? Where is the leadership?
— paul, albany, ny
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
113.
August 10th, 2008 2:38 pm
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Why didn't Russia wait for an OK from the United Nations before invading Georgia?Where are the calls for diplomacy before invasion by Russia?
— Edward, New York
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
114.
August 10th, 2008 2:45 pm
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As with any international event, many NYTimes readers try to draw a straight line to Bush. Well, that's partisan politics not anything useful.In reality, Georgia and Russia have been on a collision course for decades. One cannot have provinces in between countries with undeclared nationality. Conflict is inevitable.Is Russia overreacting in attacking a tiny country with a standing army of 19,500 men? Of course. But then the average Russian watched with glee as Russian aircraft destroyed the hometown of Josef Stalin. This, a 50year old vendetta, is not related to America or Bush in any way. It's vengence and misplaced pride.
— Cheryl Rider, Houston
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
115.
August 10th, 2008 2:45 pm
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The west NATO and the free-world should do all it can to protect Georgia from Russian atrocities and stop acting as cowards, otherwise they lose all credibility in the rest of the world and their own people, say good bye to their moral standing and their world status by accepting defeat of an ally.
— John, Atlanta, GA
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
116.
August 10th, 2008 2:49 pm
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I find it so sad that our misadventure in Iraq and our torture of "combatants" has left us without a voice in this matter or any other that involves use of force. Abuse of power is never without consequences.
— Rob Kurth, Millbrook, NY
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
117.
August 10th, 2008 2:49 pm
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This a good lesson for United States and the EU. The region is Russia's sphere of influence, of course it is going act to assert that authority specially after Kosovo. Russian made its mind after EU/US blunder in Kosovo. Its independence should have not been recognized, at least not now. I seems that Georgia miscalculated what the EU and US will do, now you know.
— PK, New York
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
118.
August 10th, 2008 2:55 pm
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@ number 2 (Thomas R.. Cardwell, Lincoln, NE)Whoa. I am sure you can find your local recruiting office and sign on up if you're so gun ho to start fighting. I am sure our over stretched forces in Afghanistan and Iraq would love to be shipped out to fight against Russian forces on a 3rd front (an opponent who actually would be able to fight back with sophisticated technology), and I am sure they'd love to have you there. As a US citizen as well I can say I would never want to go to war with Russia.As far as this conflict the Georgian President has been spitting in the face of his Russian neighbors for years now. That's not to say that Russia hasn't spat back, but can you imagine what the US would do if Cuba were to all of a sudden annex southern Florida because of the substantial Cuban population there? Honestly what was he thinking would happen?
— CAV, VT
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
119.
August 10th, 2008 2:55 pm
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I'm not sure the U.S. has a dog in this hunt. The Georgians acted badly and stupidly; the Russians had more than ample provocation to defend ethnic Russians from the threat of massacre. The old Cold Warriors still want to operate from a policy of containment, but it's a very different world from 1975. At very least there is no longer a need for the U.S. to take the diplomatic lead here. The French and Germans want the EU to be recognized as a superpower; well, now's the time.Moreover, the U.S. is going to need Russian and Chinese (as well as European) acquiescence for a proper assault on the emerging Taliban/Bin Laden republic in Pakistan.Now is not the time to make some big stink about respecting borders.
— T Boyer, Doylestown, PA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
120.
August 10th, 2008 2:55 pm
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Isreal has just considered not selling arms to Georgia anymore.I guess they are worried that The Bear will supply Iran with more missiles.Such fair weather friends.
— Pork for Gorki, USA
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
121.
August 10th, 2008 2:58 pm
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At what point in time will people give up equating every global action to the "irony" of George Bush?The discussion should focus on what this means for the future (i.e. without Bush).It is clear that ultimately this is about oil and power, and ultimately should provide the clearest indication of our need to move to a post-petroleum economy. Georgia is the only transit point for Azeri oil to reach the West. If Russia takes control of the Georgian pipeline ... they conceivable will have a stranglehold on over half of the worlds Oil and Gas supplies.It should also be clear that the 90's vintages image of Russia decaying mess is long gone. Russia has been a world power for several hundred years ... and is a world power now. Our short-sighted rewriting of the rules of international sovereignty in Kosavo/Bosnia has opened the door to the new age of Russian/Chinese/US petro-colonialism.
— Aersopace Engineer, Seattle
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
122.
August 10th, 2008 3:04 pm
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I sit in disbelief when I read that America should do "whatever is necessary to help an ally." We are to risk war with an nuclear armed superpower of great strategic value over a place of no strategic value? Last week, 98% of the the population never ever heard of South Ossetia. Even now, how many of you could even point it out on a map?
— welsh, CA
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
123.
August 10th, 2008 3:10 pm
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Sorry for my english first.I would like to say two things more for you. Russian peacekeepers are in Osetia according to legal international basement. It was signed by Georgia, Russia and Osetia.And, according this basement, in case when one side of conflict will attack another side and pull troops behind breakline - Russia obliged to protect this side from another.So, here we are :)And according this:1. Yes, we are attacking Georgia. As long they attacking Osetia. And it's legal. As long Georgia not attacking Osetia - we are not attacking Georgia. Very simple, agree?1. Yes, we are in the Georgia territory. And it's legal to - it's hard to protect Osetia from Urals, agree? :)Thank you for attention, from Siberia with love ;)
— Stepan, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
124.
August 10th, 2008 3:10 pm
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The fact is that Russia is playing the same geopolitics that any world power would play. It's essential for the U.S. to support Georgia in this war not only out of solidarity with a democratic nation, but as a means to maintain our influence in the region. After all, if that is what the Georgian people want, then we have all the legitimacy we need.Furthermore, it is quite clear that Georgia has withdrawn from its two breakaway provinces. The fact that Russia continues to press on into Georgia reveals its more sinister motives.
— Camillus, Altadena, CA
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
125.
August 10th, 2008 3:19 pm
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Imagine that there is a state in Mexico that close to the US border. More than 90% citizens of that state are citizens of U.S. Mexican president desides to solve a problem of territorial integrity with a military way. He gave an order to attack the capital by all the forces he have. Will US leader give an order to the troops to enter this state with aim to protect US citizens? If so, then why Russia can't do the same?
— Roman, Saint-Petersburg
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
126.
August 10th, 2008 3:19 pm
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Has read through NYTymes. It is surprised in what kind by all of you it have submitted.1. Georgia has destroyed Schenvaly-city by systems of mass fire. 2000 peace citizens have died. The Georgian soldiers have entered into city and killed all - threw grenades in cellars where peace inhabitants tried to hide; shot the wounded peacemakers.2. Russia urgently convokes congress "Organization of Unated Nationals" about this genocide - all members have ignored it.3. Russia has entered on territory South Ossetia and has protected peace citizens. But bombardment of city proceeded the Georgian artillery from mountains. The Georgian snipers killed all - women, children, old men.4. Saakashvili acts in English on tv - that the American citizens did not trouble themselves with translation. CNN shows the massed attack of systems of mass fire and speaks that it is Russian bomb Georgia, but actually it is fragments of video in which Georgia bombs Schenvaly-city. Russia does not use system of mass fire when there is a danger of defeat of the peace population.Georgians look on the osset, as at the second race. Conditions in introductions into NATO for Georgia - territorial integrity. Therefore Georgia has decided to destroy simply the osset as the nation that have accepted in NATO.Russia has not allowed it to happen and Russia is guilty.
— Konstantin, Russia
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
127.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 3:24 pm
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What should be understood here, is that most of the people speak of the wrong issue. They speak of Russian invasion into Georgia and how bad/good Russia is.What they should be speaking of is what solution ( alternative to the one happenned ) was possible?Of course, apart from defending Osetians, Russia was pursuing its other geo-political interests. But, it just so happens, that this time, they did the right thing. May be for the wrong reasons ( apart from the right ones ), but what they did was correct.Imagine what would have happenned if Russia would limit itself to staying neutral and just watching the "show".A massacre, genocide, call it what you will, but there would hardly be any osetians left alive..No decent government would ever solve the issue of a region wishing to be independent by starting heavy artilery fire over the capital of that region.Anyone capable of doing this should be condemned.Even though Georgia is known as US ally, it should NOT receive support when it comes to actions like that.
— Noim Porta, Spain
Recommend Recommended by 9 Readers
128.
August 10th, 2008 3:28 pm
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I think it is safe to say that the USA has no say or influence on what is going to happen in this conflict. Russia cannot be blockaded by the US, has plenty of resources, and plenty of trading partners willing to do business with them, regardless of US political statements. Militarily, the Georgians will be blotted out very quickly, even more quickly than the US "cornered" Iraq. There was never a chance that the Russians were going to let US military bases be built in Georgia, and why George Bush was not able to understand this is beyond comprehension. Georgia will be a weakened, split country, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will be come part of Russian, and Georgia will be forced to give Russia significant control of oil passing through Georgia to the Black Sea.
— Carl, NY
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
129.
August 10th, 2008 3:28 pm
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Oil. Russia ( and perhaps Georgia?) needs oil dollars. The price of oil is retreating. What better way to drive it up than start a war that could compromise an energy pipeline. Just like Iraq, it is about oil. We need to change to new energy sources and leave oil behind.
— Lynn, Nevada
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
130.
August 10th, 2008 3:31 pm
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Isn't this largely about energy and pipelines?
— Jean C., Pennsylvania
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
131.
August 10th, 2008 3:31 pm
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How would USA behave if 2000 its citizens are being killed? Wait for UNO resolution? I think it would do the same or even more "unproportional" response. Let´s not wake up Russian bear and let them establish back the peace in the region. Who really wants here WW3?
— Dennis, Spain, Barcelona, Spain
Recommend Recommended by 6 Readers
132.
August 10th, 2008 3:39 pm
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This war has buried many hopes but created an intriguing possibility for better ties between the West and China. That's according to Steve Levine, a veteran foreign correspondent. He provides a refreshingly rational coverage of this ongoing war in Georgia. Levine covered previous wars in the Caucasus (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Chechnya, Nagorny Karabakh) and his view offers a rare insight: http://oilandglory.com/2008/08/georgia-russia-and-rethinking-china.html
— Krisztina, Los Angeles
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
133.
August 10th, 2008 3:39 pm
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This has all the tragic elements of a perfect storm. Georgia's territory was defined by its Soviet administrative past. Folks in Abkhazia and South Ossetia believe Georgia is as much a bully as Georgians believe Russia is. Russia uses Kosovo's independence as de facto justification for these provinces being independent. Bush led Georgia foolishly to believe we'd support their sovereignty but backed by no US muscle, and Europe will be as pusillanimous as it was over the breakup of Yugoslavia. Russia provoked Georgian military action by fostering/allowing destabilizing smuggling through S. Osettia. And Russia holds all the economic and military cards. So, Russia can exercise its autocratic inclination, pursue its nearly always brutal military tactics, and it will succeed with miliatary and pulitical impunity, despite its badly managed and disciplined army.Bush better get back asap to Washington and forget the game-watching. This is serious trouble and a harbinger of more to come. With the Russian invasion of Georgia itself it's time to get tough in whatever economic and political ways we can with the Russians.
— Malcolm F. Baldwin, Lovettsville, Virginia
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
134.
August 10th, 2008 3:39 pm
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Let those who claim Georgia killed 2,000 innocent Ossetians (including the most recent Editor Selection author) provide some proof or documentaiton of that claim.I've seen no proof that occured. Where is the photo-evidence? Witnesses? Is it just made-up nonsense? After all, there are plenty of photos of dead Georgian civilians.
— Cheryl Rider, Houston
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
135.
August 10th, 2008 3:40 pm
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Russia's attack on Georgia is precisely the same as Adolph Hitler's attack on Poland in September 1939. This is not just about protecting Russian citizens living in Ossetia, it is naked aggression against the entire nation of Georgia which has acted responsibily since becoming free of Soviet domination. What is sad is that the corrupt GWBush administration is utterly powerless to do anything about growing Russian savagery. We have no troops no send since they are tied up in Bush's unnecessary war in Iraq and Bush lacks the courage to stand up to Putin. The Russians will very probably destroy Georgia's democracy as well as its independence, and America will be shown before the entire world to be utterly impotent.
— David S. Robins, Bigfork, MT
Recommend Recommended by 0 Readers
136.
August 10th, 2008 3:40 pm
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We here in the USA have a moral obligation to defend the Republic of Georgia against Russia's naked aggression. We have abandoned the people of Georgia. We cannot let Russia punish the Georgian people for having chosen to model themselves on the democratic West and rejecting Russian domination. This is the best democracy to have emerged from the former USSR. If they fall, that sends the message to the rest of Russia's near abroad that their security isn't best secured by following the Western model, and that allegiance to the bellicose Putin regime is the only way to avoid T-80 tanks cruisning down Mian Street. If the United Nations is to have any relevancy, it must respond. The European Union must respond. Democractic naitons cannot sit idle while Russia re-ennacts the Great Game of the 19th century.
— Mike, Atlanta, GA
Recommend Recommended by 1 Reader
137.
August 10th, 2008 3:47 pm
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Questions somehow remaining unanswered:Why does Saakashvili more often address the public in English (not in Georgian)?Why does he put the flag of EU behind his back, as if he officialy speaks on the behalf of the whole European Union?How can he say "we're a small sovereign democracy state with freedom of speech, we're victims here" when last night all russian tv channels and web-sites within *.ru (russian) were shut down in Georgia? Freedom of speech, huh?How well does Saakashvili's "We love those people, they're of our kin" said about Osetian folk on BBC illustrate high death tolls (more than one thousand) among the civilian population of S. Osetia in Tshinvali?Why did they place an ammunition depot in a residential area in Gori (where it was eventually bombarded)?Mostly rhetoric questions, of course.
— Morteaux, Europe
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
138.
August 10th, 2008 3:48 pm
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As I heard it, the citizens of South Ossetia want to be free from Georgia. They are ethnically Russian, identify with Russia and North Ossetia, and have accepted Russian passports. I agree with one of the Spaniards above who has said this is an issue that will not be resolved in a maelstrom of fire the night before the Olympics open. South Ossetia has a democracy and they've made their choice. To quote; "If I were in their position, I'd do the same." There are families and friends involved between Russia and South Ossetia. I agree that there's more worth, here, than with the USA and Iraq.
— John Seale, Ann Arbor, Michigan
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
139.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 3:48 pm
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The big takeaway here is that the US is impotent in this conflict. It will not risk war with Russia. Remember that when listening to bluster from would-be leaders.
— Darster, Birmingham
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
140.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
August 10th, 2008 3:49 pm
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This is not about freedom or lack thereof, this is about oil and control of resources. The pipeline that runs through Georgia, connects the Mediterranean with the Kazakhstani oil fields and represents one of the only pipelines from the area that does not either go through Russia or an Arab state. As such, it represents a direct threat to Russia's ability to control the political landscape in Europe through the flow of its oil and natural gas resources. Look at what happened when the Czech Republic signed on to the missile shield program with the United States. Mysteriously their flow of oil from Russia decreased, only to be "graciously" restored through Putin's intervention. It doesn't matter whether Georgia is a democracy or a dictatorship. All that matters is whether Russia controls the flow of oil through the area south of the Caucasus Mountains. They cannot attack Azerbijian, because then they would have a jihad on their hands. So they go after Georgia. Unfortunately, the United States is now too weak to do anything about it, so this will be the political landscape of the future.
— J Ake, NYC
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
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