Read Below -- Especially Numbers 90, 110

August 15, 2008, 9:45 am
Bush on Why Georgia Matters to Americans
By Mike Nizza
Not only did President Bush intensify pressure on Russia in a statement this morning, he also sought to explain why Americans should care about young nation “halfway around the world.” The relevant excerpt is directly below, as transcribed by the White House, followed by a comment box for your reactions. The full text is here.
Some Americans listening today may wonder why events taking place in a small country halfway around the world matter to the United States. In the years since it’s gained independence after the Soviet Union’s collapse, Georgia has become a courageous democracy. Its people are making the tough choices that are required of free societies. Since the Rose Revolution in 2003, the Georgian people have held free elections, opened up their economy, and built the foundations of a successful democracy.
Georgia has sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq to help others achieve the liberty that they struggled so hard to attain. To further strengthen their democracy, Georgia has sought to join the free institutions of the West. The people of Georgia have cast their lot with the free world, and we will not cast them aside.
Georgia’s emergence as a young democracy has been part of an inspiring and hopeful new chapter in Europe’s history. Europe has moved beyond the world wars that killed millions of people, and the Cold War that divided its citizens between two superpowers. Every administration since the end of the Cold War has worked with European partners to extend the reach of liberty and prosperity. And now, for the first time in memory, Europe is becoming a continent that is whole, free, and at peace.
To Mr. Bush’s point, a Gallup poll in November 2007 found that more than three in four Georgians strongly backed democracy, and 85 percent agreed that an “active political opposition was “very important” or “important.”
But two CBS News/New York Times polls suggested that the president was facing a tough crowd at home. While 75 percent of Americans surveyed last December believed that democracy was “the best system of government for all countries,” they do not seem willing to invest U.S. resources in achieving that ideal.
In March 2007, only 15 percent of those surveyed answered “yes” to the following question: “Should the United States try to change a dictatorship to a democracy where it can, or should the United States stay out of other countries’ affairs?” 68 percent were content to stay on the sidelines.
Democratization, of course, was an inaugural theme of the Bush administration. However, the campaign in the Middle East was faltering by 2006 as elections in Iraq, Egypt and the Palestinian failed to spark wider gains. In May, James Traub wrote in The New York Times Magazine, “We don’t hear much about the propagation of democracy these days.”
Comments (131)
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131 comments so far...
1.
August 15th,20089:57 am
I agree with President Bush! We are blessed as a nation to have him in the White House
— Posted by Priscilla Stevens
2.
August 15th,200810:01 am
President Bush is particularly well placed to scold Russia: he knows something about bullying, intimidation and international isolation.
— Posted by Jacques Weissgerber
3.
August 15th,200810:08 am
Georgia has democracy fine but what does it matter? Lenanon also had a democratic gov’t when Israel attacked it. We wouldn’t even ask Israel to cease fire and stop attacking a small defenseless country. How can we ask Russia (and expect them to take us seriously) when we have done far worse.
— Posted by Bill
4.
August 15th,200810:10 am
It is sad that this small country has to be beaten up by such a big super power. But we must remember that what goes around comes around. Bush and Putin could not have been more friends than they were in the years of his presidency. Putin was Bush’s right arm. Bush taught Putin well (not that Putin needed any lessons). We went after poor little Iraq with all lies and untold truths that there were, now his good friend Mr. Putin is doing exactly what he did to Iraq. Strange, that now he wants to call Putin a Bully (I wonder where he learned that one from). Good Luck Georgia and God Bless you becase with friends like George Bush and him with a friend like Putin Gods knows you are going to need it.
— Posted by diana
5.
August 15th,200810:10 am
Mr. Putin Now joins rank with the famous 20th century Ossetian dictator.He has demonstrated that he is a man of steel.The facial hair will follow.
— Posted by Matthew Dunaif
6.
August 15th,200810:11 am
this is a true fight to sustain democracy. now if bush didnt ruin the public’s trust in him, we might have rallied around this cause. now we may be too fed up with conflict to even care… what a shame.
— Posted by Albin
7.
August 15th,200810:14 am
Our worst nightmare — a reverse Cuban Missle Crisis — with cowboys in control instead of John Kennedy and Nikita Khruschev.
To act tough we rush to sign an idiotic missle agreement with Poland.
So Russia moves 10 km closer to Tblisi.
Why didn’t Congress do more about the reckless conduct torward the former Soviet Union countries?
Afraid of Rush Limbaugh?
— Posted by f bruce abel
8.
August 15th,200810:16 am
The sooner the better we get rid of this bunch of trigger happy fools.
We’d had nothing but trouble since our interventionist foreign policy began with the seizure of Cuba to save it from Spanish tyrany.Had we stayed out of WWI there never would have been Nazis, Soviets, and the Holocaust.
— Posted by MARK KLEIN, M.D.
9.
August 15th,200810:18 am
Georgia does matter! US relations with Europe matter! Our ability to form an effect response to this latest Russian move does matter! So what do we have to thank George Bush and his so-called Russian “expert” Sect’t of State for? An impotent rant about how this action will negatively impact the future of our relations.
Bush still doesn’t get it - he has frittered away all the power and moral high ground this country took centuries to amass with his asinine and foolish foreign policies and his penchant for appointing incompetent people to positions of critical importance. With his abandonment of our highest ideals about personal liberties and constitutional rights he has undermined our ability to strike out in favor of the Georgian people in any effective manner.
His beligerent manner also may have given false indications to the Georgian leadership that they could push the situation in South Ossetia further than was wise. What they didn’t realize was that Bush is “all hat no cattle” when it comes to a real confrontation - as are all bullys and cowards.
He should just resign his office right now and go back to Crawford. What an awful failure as President he has been! We will be lucky to recover as a nation from his disasterous administration no matter who becomes president in November.
— Posted by Joe Lane
10.
August 15th,200810:21 am
Once again, President Bush sees and discusses only what is convenient for him. Yes, Georgia has begun to function as a democracy. But Mikheil Saakashvili erred when he sent Georgian tanks into the disputed areas of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. A democracy has to protect the rights of all its citizens, including the ethnic Russians who were being thrown out of these regions. This is one of the biggest tests for a democracy: whether its institutions protect democratic rights even under extreme pressure. Georgia has shown itself to be undemocratic in this regard.Condoleeza Rice is an old Cold War hawk who has been pining for the return of those days since the Soviet Union broke up. She is leading President Bush to meddle in affairs at Russia’s doorstep. They provoked the Russians by supplying arms and training to the Georgians and now missiles to Poland. They are systematically undoing all of the progress that has been made since the Berlin Wall came down.Yes, Vladimir Putin is authoritarian. He needs to be brought into negotiations with Georgia, Eastern Europe and the West. President Bush said it is important to stay engaged with China. It is just as important to stay engaged with Russia.Rice and Bush are in very dangerous territory and they should stop escalating their rhetoric or they are going to wind up provoking a third World War. Tensions are higher than they have been in years. It is time to calm down, think through solutions.How would the American government react if Russia put missiles into Canada or Mexico? It would be just as upset as the Russian government has become over the US putting missiles in Poland.
— Posted by Elizabeth
11.
August 15th,200810:26 am
a sovereign, powerful nation unilaterally excersizes its hegemony over a small third world nation. it invades its territory, occupies its land, destroys its infrastructure and severely diminishes its own international prestige and credibility, given that its actions are premised upon pretext and outright lies. shame on russia. the usa should maintain the moral and diplomatic high ground and demonstrate its outrage-from the green zone!
— Posted by puleeze
12.
August 15th,200810:29 am
He’s right of course, about the fact that Russia is in the wrong, but after telling us some people may wonder why this matters - and implyingh he is going to exoplain that - he doesn’t.
This doesn’t tell us WHY this matters.
He only says that “now, for the first time in memory, Europe is becoming a continent that is whole, free, and at peace.”
Whatever generalization he wants to make about hhow all this is important, remains unsaid. Does he mean to say that courage must be rewarded? That this could spoil the trend in Europe? That Georgia’s support in Afghanistan and Iraq should be rewarded? That simply because they are so clearly in the right, it is important? Bush doesn’t say anything.
— Posted by Sammy Finkelman
13.
August 15th,200810:32 am
I believe the President Bush is correct in his assessment and reaction espcially if the Russian invasion of Georgia marks the beginning of Cold War II. Democrats and Republicans as well as Americans and Europeans need to state unequivocally their support of Georgia and other nations that are threated by the specter of the Russian bear. To that end, NATO should reconsider Georgia’s and Ukraine’s membership application ASAP and accept them into the alliance.
— Posted by Lawrence G. Morris
14.
August 15th,200810:33 am
I’d wager that when Bush was first asked why Georgia was important, he pointed out that it was initially a buffer state populated by forcibly relocated debtors and other criminals, to bear the brunt of any invasion from the Spanish in Florida. Also nowadays it’s got Atlanta, which has the Coca-Cola bottling plant, an inspiring airport, and not enough water.
Anyway, yes its great that ex-Soviet Georgia is proceeding fairly well along the road to democracy. The true test will be when Saakashvili has to step down by term limits… if he appoints the next president or refuses to step down, then it isn’t actually a democracy.
But there are other brand-new democracies on the planet that need our help a lot more. Mauritania had a bloodless coup and went democratic on its own. Then we ignored it completely, Islamists took charge, and the military had to overthrow the government before it turned into something like the Taliban.
Liberia finally got rid of their bloodthirsty tyrant Charles Taylor, with a U.S. marine unit stationed offshore that did absolutely nothing the whole time. Then they enacted a democracy and elected the first female ruler in Africa I believe. Since then we have done nothing to help them and I wouldn’t be surprised if their democracy fails soon.
While what Bush says there is roughly true, it should be applied to plenty of other nations that, due to lack of resources or militarily strategic value, we have abandoned to their fates. So what Bush really meant to say is, Georgia is important to us as an irritant to Russia and a weak spot in its borders, including having the potential to blockade Russia’s Black Sea ports.
Simply put, this statement is the traditional hypocritical lip service by Bush, with all the importance and impact of a brief burst of flatulence in a wind tunnel.
— Posted by Dan Stackhouse
15.
August 15th,200810:36 am
the only people that would be against democracy in georgia are those that yearn for the days of the politburo being in charge and, more likely, those suffering from BDS, bush derangement syndrome.long live free georgia.
— Posted by coleman
16.
August 15th,200810:37 am
So, What Happened? did Georgia invade militarily, first this ‘Ossetia’ or whatever?There has been no explanation of what is really going on that is credible!
— Posted by todd
17.
August 15th,200810:37 am
Ironies certainly abound. It is just idiotic for Washington to rail against Russian expansionism in Georgia while at the same time we sign an agreement to install missiles in Poland and continue to occupy Iraq in a futile but deadly engagement. To the rest of the world, America could hardly have more diminished standing, regardless of how many gold medals Michael Phelps may garner.
— Posted by Jeff Pidot
18.
August 15th,200810:42 am
This war is all Georgia’s fault and we look ever worse as we continue to take their side. Russia was wrong, sure, but Georgia brought this upon themselves.
— Posted by Ap
19.
August 15th,200810:44 am
US foreign policy under GWB has been reckless and a disaster of monumental proportion. Besides invading Iraq on false pretense and getting bogged down, the Bush administration has promoted a policy of isolating and provoking Russia by granting NATO memberships to former Soviet satelites, installing missile defense systems in Poland and training and equiping Georgian army. These policies are surely provoking to Russia and contradictory to historical precedents. Whatever happens to the concepts and practices of buffer zones and sphere of influence? These Bush’s policies regarding Russia are very dangerous. What is so appalling is that the maintream American media has almost totally ignored these dangers and, therefore, not informing the public. Instead, the media has played the role of cheerleading for these stupid and dangerous policies. Get ready for more cold and hot wars.
— Posted by stendah
20.
August 15th,200810:46 am
United States under George W Bush and Russia under Putin have a lot in common. Both started unprovoked wars and both governments are cloaked in secrecy.
— Posted by ronba
21.
August 15th,200810:49 am
Why has no one asked the obvious: If South Ossetia should be independent of Georgia, should not North Ossetia also be independent of Russia? We shoudl call the Russian’s bluff; say that we will support full independence for *all* Ossetians. Would love to see the Russians try to twist a propaganda reply to that position!
— Posted by Jeff
22.
August 15th,200810:50 am
Isnt the condemnation eminating from western Europe deafening? Bush is proving once again how outoftouch he is with reality. That Europe depends heavily on Russian energy makes them a non-factor and sideliners regardless of the false bleatings of democracy thwarted. Do democratic countries try to use force to engage areas who wish to remain separated? (as did S. Ossetia want from Georgia). If Georgia were truly and peacefully democratic they would have used democratic levers end their differences.
— Posted by Brian M.
23.
August 15th,200810:53 am
#6, you nailed it.
— Posted by Daniel
24.
August 15th,200810:53 am
This whole set of events is disturbing. Had Bush not taken us to war under false pretenses, and had simply remained a casually incompetent president, then I could support him. However, he plays a two-face worthy of a DC Comics villain.
At this point the only concessions I see possible are handing over South Ossetia to the Russians, while creating a military presence in Georgia. The Patriot Missile batteries in Poland have to come down, their strategic importance is negligible in light of their historic significance. Even if they are designed to shoot down incoming warheads (as opposed to launching attacks of their own), they create an undeniable expectation of an aggressive attack by a power capable of launching an SS or ICBM.
More alarming to me, a child of the net generation is the ignorance of Russia’s ability to launch attacks at our electronics infrastructure. Bush and Rice seem to ignore the potentially disastrous effects a protracted “e-attack” could have on our economy, our military and our society.
— Posted by Jonathan Eziquiel
25.
August 15th,200810:55 am
I think “opened up their economy” is the reason this administration cares about Georgia.
— Posted by Dean
26.
August 15th,200810:56 am
Bush recognized a kindred spirit when he saw Putin’s soul in his eyes.
— Posted by CDW
27.
August 15th,200810:56 am
This Presidency is like “A Clockwork Orange” where the main character commits acts of cruelty only to have the same cruelty inflicted to him in return. That Russia and Putin can invade a sovereign country, and our President who chose to invade and occupy a soverign country calls this bullying, is beyond the pale. So much for Bush apologists who claim we have revitalized intelligence agencies, and our leader in chief has a good sense of another person’s character, as Bush claimed with Putin. Stop the defending and pray that January 20 happens before anything more befalls our country.
— Posted by Adirondacker
28.
August 15th,200810:57 am
I am grateful to Bush for keeping this country safe during his two terms. He took the war to the enemy after 8 years of being attacked as a result of Clinton not responding to terrorism. 9/11 which was planned by Bin Laden during the Clinton term and and responded to by Bush, showed the world that the US was going to be tough again and protect ourselves. Putin and Russia will not be aggressive while Bush is still president. It took one phone call from Bush and Putin entered into a deal with Georgia. It is only because Bush has followed his words with actions that Putin listened. The media only know to criticize Bush, but he keeps this country safe. I would like to see one of his critics do that.
No doubt there are the fools who would say that the safety of the 300 million Americans has come at a cost of the lives and limbs of thousands of soldiers. However, there is always a cost to protect. Police die. Firemen die. Brave people willing to give up life and limb to protect us.
God Bless America
America (atheist version)
— Posted by Lyle Vos
29.
August 15th,200810:59 am
Georgia does matter! Puttin has an oil pipe line running from Baku to the Black Sea thruogh Georgia. If we can support the Georgians and disrupt the flow of oil, the boys in Texas can raise the price of crude even higher and gas can go to $8 dollars a gallon instead of the meager $4 we pay now.
— Posted by lone wolf
30.
August 15th,200811:00 am
The trouble with Mr Bush’s statement is that it is pure propaganda for internal consumption, and is not supported by facts. If we were really this concerned with protecting democratic regimes and democracy we would have demonstrated in many other places; e.g. Hamas, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc etc as mentioned in several other comments above. At least his special representative in Georgia, Matthew Bryza was more honest when he listed as the first and foremost US interest in Georgia being energy security and independence from Russian pipelines (an interview he gave to BBC earlier this week). Mr Bush knows full well that he can depend on the LAZY US mainstream media to not provide a full story and parrot his line with out analysis or critique. I believe we need to provide the US people all aspects of the issue so that they can decide whether they want to subsidize (in MONEY and BLOOD) the BP, Conoco as these corporations look for ways to make money.
PS: The rest of the world knows what our interest is all about.
— Posted by Dev
31.
August 15th,200811:02 am
Georgie boy couldn’t help ending his statement this morning with one of his derisive sneers just to make sure that everyone understands how tough and serious he is. This man’s infantile body language should be an alarming signal of just how dangerous this situation is becoming. A seriously deficient mentality is in charge and it is not clear that there are any adults around to contain his well documented worst inclinations.
— Posted by andrew
32.
August 15th,200811:05 am
When are we going to stop bullying Russia? We turned Georgia into a satellite to spy on Russia and harass it. Now the Russians have said enough is enough. Indeed we need to stop our anti-Russian troublemaking.
— Posted by norman ravitch
33.
August 15th,200811:08 am
There’s a big difference between going in and changing a regime because we arrogantly think democracy is somehow superior, and going in to help a friend or ally. If we don’t live up to our commitments to friends and allies, we have no honor.
Bush is a moron and 99 out of 100 things he does is wrong, but this is the 1 in a 100 where he’s right.
— Posted by Boldizar
34.
August 15th,200811:19 am
I didnt need this war. I dont think anyone did. A risky move by Georgia and an allout offensive by Russia. The breakaway regions are undoubtably the price Georgia must pay for the end of a Russian presence.
— Posted by Allen
35.
August 15th,200811:20 am
Right.
United States is acting like it is not willing to cede the world to the strongest bullies. We’ve been acting like that for almost a century now and at no small cost to life and treasure. In that period we could have annexed countless countries but we didn’t. Where we could we prevented others from being taken over.
If we are the evil conqueror some posters like to imagine, we’re pretty bad at it.
But while the posters are wrong in their statements, they may have a point. The period in history for us to assume the role of protector-of-the-level-playing-field may be coming to an end. Our dream of nations trading freely and being secure in the shadow of much larger nations may no longer be realizable and may become less so as time passes.
Given our world spanning nuclear warfare capability our best course may be protectionism. Lock the borders. Keep our military within our borders and go back to the models of self-sufficiency and strong trade restrictions. Make it clear that there would be no gradual escalation in our response to foreign aggression and that the lands of aggressors will be destroyed. Let the rest of the world sort it out for themselves.
Anything else may no longer be workable for this country.
— Posted by Ed Every
36.
August 15th,200811:22 am
I think we should no put missiles in Poland.It will be difficult because it will look as a sign of weakness from president Bush and will be perceived as giving to ultimatum from Russia not to put missiles in Poland.I think for sake of Peace and non aggression and not let Russia have excuse for taking over Poland again.We must let go of our plan to put missiles in Poland.
— Posted by Ely R
37.
August 15th,200811:23 am
Last I heard, Russia was a Democracy too. Putin was elected. He’s no longer the President. He’s still wildly popular there and from what I hear, this invasion of Georgia is popular there too.
Bush is unpopular. In fact, based on his record, I am now inclined to believe the opposite of anything he says.
One aspect of the Bush’s “war on terror” was that he looked the other way while Putin amassed a great deal of power. Now, Bush has no power to do anything here, little power to do anything there, and Russia is holding all the cards. On top of that, it’s hard to fault Russia’s argument that they are protecting a pro-Russian section of Georgia.
— Posted by George
38.
August 15th,200811:27 am
There are some facts that summarize like this: ever since 1783 Russia tries to swallow Georgia and every 10-20 years georgians prove they didn’t forget Rusia is not their country.
1783 - georgia under overwhelming Persian threat signs a protectorate treaty with RussiaNot more than 3 years after the tsar Paul Ist signed a proclamation of incorporation og Georgia in the Russian Empire
The Georgian envoy to Saint Petersporg reacts with a note of protest… so much for diplomacy in 1780.
In 1801 the georgian heir is dethroned by the russian army and a russian gorvenment is put in placein 1802 the georgian nobility still faithfull to their natioanl leader is compassed in a Tiblisi cathedral and forecd to take an oath to the tsar. Those not accepting were arrested.
As soon as Russia’s grip smoothened during their revolution in 1917 Georgia proclaines independence (apparently they kept not forgetting they weren’t russians). They become a parliamentary republic; for two years they live under UK protectorate.However within 2 years the Red Army attacks again and in 21 they reinstall a russian government(so much for the Western protection).
Between 1941 and 1945 700000 georgians fought against the third Reich (compare that to the population now of 4.4 millions, at that time was probably lower).
For the next 50 years the Russians ensure “regional tranquility” - nothing but isolated dissident voices can be heard.
In 1989 the soviet troups massacre a peaceful demonstration in Tiblisi, but in 1990 the population has again a word to say and an anticomunist regime is voted with a large margin.
However in 92 a russian instrumented coup d’etat assasinates most key political leaders.Between 92 and 95 about 250000 georgians were ethnically cleanesd from Abkhazia (guess if the oil reserves of Abkhazia have any importance at this point).
In 2003 Shevardnadze (Gorbatchov’s exterior ministry if anyone remembers, and who was now the president of Georgia) is deposed by a bloodless revolution led by the actual president.
The present day georgian government might be reckless or did poor political choices, but from here to argue they “started it” is extremely unfair and denotes gross ignorance of the area.
Finally we have to understand Rusia, both before and after the WWII, occupied a number of countries. That we don’t know which doesn’t make them inexistant. These countries never forgot they are not rusians. Georgia is onely one of them. Look at the regional reaction: Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland,Hungary, Romania, Checkia all fear rusian occupation, maybe they know why.It is painful for the giant to spit all they have swallowed during the last 100 of years, but they have to learn it’s better to try to win their trust rather than have as only political arugment: invasion.
The West is interested in working this situation out, and not only for power reasons. One important reason stays as follows: the West knows we would prefer a rusian planet rather than no planet at all, the countries who have tasted the rusian occupation no planet might sound better than a rusian one…
— Posted by currandera
39.
August 15th,200811:30 am
Without an oil pipeline the US government would pay no attention to Georgia. Geoge Bush and his arrogant posse have themselves invaded soverign nations, it is only now that Russia is doing it that the Bush administration is chiming righteously how “boundaries need to be respected”. The hypocrisy of our government is chilling. The George Bush presidency has hurt America immensly, as they leave office we are in fact weaker than ever, our military, attempting to spread democracy, is spread so thin, that we would be forced to rely upon our nuclear arsenal more so then ever to protect our selves, let alone the Georgians.
— Posted by Paul Krolowitz
40.
August 15th,200811:32 am
There have been multiple posts here questioning whether Georgia is, in fact, responsible for the crisis by moving into S Ossetia first, and why they did not attempt diplomatic resolutions to the crisis. This conflict has been brewing for the past hundred years after the Ossetians sided with the Bolsheviks against the Georgians when the Soviets invaded a democratic Georgia back in the ’20’s. There has been tension amongst the groups since. When the Soviet Union fell, the Russians armed the Ossetians and Abkhazians and even sent troops in to prevent the Georgians from solidifying their borders. Since, the Georgian government has pleaded with the puppet-regimes in these areas to become a functioning part of the Georgian state, even offering semi-autonomy and high ranking permanent positions within the Georgian government. Such offers have been rebuked numerous times by the Ossetians and Abkhazians. Ossetia answers to Russia and clearly they would prefer to be part of the Russian Federation than to Georgia. Russia has been handing out citizenship and passports to these people for the past 10-15 years in direct violation of Georgia’s sovereignty, and has done countless things to attempt to bait the Georgians into a conflict, something they finally accomplished. What should not be lost in the discussion, however, is that these regions have always been considered part of the Georgian state dating back thousands of years, and that these regions were not only populated by Abkhazians and Ossetians, but by thousands of Georgians who have been forcibly removed from their homes and villages. The Russians are, in essence, artificially homogenizing these regions and claiming spuriously that the Georgians have no claim to these territories. The other issue is one of security and practicality. The southern border of S Ossetia is only 60 miles or so from the capital of Tbilisi. Why would any Georgian feel safe knowing that Russian tanks are parked 60 miles from their city permanently? And why should the world allow such an arrangement?
— Posted by Jason
41.
August 15th,200811:33 am
Georgia attacked an area of their country that had de facto independence and many of whose citizens held Russian passports. Was Russia supposed to sit by and take it? We certainly didn’t take too kindly to Saddam killing Kurds.
Georgia can have democracy, but let’s not make the same mistake we did in Iraq of trying to enforce it against a local population’s will. South Ossetia has voted for independence — that’s the kind of democracy that needs to be respected.
— Posted by Omar
42.
August 15th,200811:35 am
This, from the world’s greatest bully.
No shame.
Also, no real reason given in Bush’s pitch, as to why Georgia is so important to the US.
— Posted by Sloper
43.
August 15th,200811:36 am
It’s a shame no one (not even the President) bothers to understand the situation on the ground. The people of South Ossetia are an ethnically distinct group that have been fighting the Georgians for independence for near 100 years now. In the early ’90’s, after the break-up of the Soviet Union and the secession of Georgia, the South Ossetians themselves attempted to secede from Georgia and join with North Ossetia under Russian rule.
Two weeks ago the Georgian military invaded South Ossetia with the goal of re-establishing dominance there. Big mistake. I believe it’s only natural for the Russians to come to the aid of their ally. If Bush were smart (I know, it’s a BIG “If”), he would have acknowledged the Russian concerns regarding Georgian intrusion into South Ossetia while also demanding Russia not move beyond the borders of South Ossetia. He could have moved a fighter wing into Georgia to settle their nerves and made sure Putin knew any further further advances by Russian troops would be met by the US pushing back. Everyone wins and he maintains decent relations with both parties.
— Posted by michael
44.
August 15th,200811:40 am
There are two major oil pipelines in this region.
The northern one runs a bit through Ossetia.
It’s all about the oil.
If we don’t stop these Texas oil men they will get us all killed.
— Posted by Trotsky
45.
August 15th,200811:47 am
the only thing the American people have to fear is this (our) dangerous President now in office totin’ guns, makin’tough talk, lookin’ mad, enraged and threatening to kick butt to make the world free from the Arabs and all the other countries now that hate us and our ways. January 20th seems far away?
— Posted by walter palmer
46.
August 15th,200811:51 am
As a European, it escapes me how Georgia is part of Europe. I always thought it was a middle Asian country. Or is, to Bush, “anything right of us on the map” Euope? If so, I’m looking forward to nice holidays in the hot parts of Southern Europe (formerly known as Africa) or the Olympic Games being held in far-out Eastern Europe (formerly known as China), or actually all that oil in Not-So-Far-Out Europe (formerly known as Russia).
Do presidents get a geography lesson or two with all that travelling?
— Posted by Alexandr
47.
August 15th,200811:51 am
Georgia is a young democracy is not reason to get involved. I think we have enough on our plate, let’s not get distracted and spread ourselves too thin by trying to be the world’s police. Let a major European country in the region stick up for Georgia and the US can back those efforts. I don’t think we need to take the lead on this one.
— Posted by esmiles
48.
August 15th,200811:55 am
I was in Georgia in May. It is a poor country with a rich cultural and wine history. It’s been occupied by outside powers for most of its history, but the election that was going on when I was there was proof of a natural hunger for freedom. Putin’s move is nothing but a brutal stab at a weak country. It would be a tragedy if he succeeds.
— Posted by George
49.
August 15th,200811:57 am
The reason we are in Georgia is an oil/gas pipeline. If this is a worthwhile reason to re-create the Cold War, then it should be debated on those grounds. Not on the illusion that this is about ‘democracy.’
— Posted by tom
50.
August 15th,200811:58 am
If Kosovo and Macedonia have the right to secede from Yugoslavia, why don’t these two parts of Georgia? These areas already had de facto independence of the rest of Georgia before this war was begun by the actions of the Georgian government.A fair compromise would be to allow a referendum under the auspices of the UN in the disaffected areas to choose their course, part of Russia, Georgia, or independent. Any further military advance by Russia against Tblisi should be vigorously opposed.Bush has seemingly secured a big victory by cementing our relationship with Poland during this crisis. Poland has now become the frontier against any Russian domination of Europe.I like how Bush refers to Georgia as part of Europe. If so, where’s Asia?
— Posted by Andrew Grady
51.
August 15th,200812:05 pm
While is is all and good that George Bush, John McCain, et. al. are coming to aid of Georgia; it remains that Georgia started the conflict. They were emboldened, and even encouraged, by the current administration. The disputed areas in question have been a sore point with Russia for years. Also, this is more of an oil issue, than a democracy issue. If a major oil pipeline did not go through Georgia then no one would care about what is happening, with the the former USSR states which border Georgia.
Russia is not all innocent in the process, either. With the breakup of the Soviet Union, they lost territory that was part of the Russian Empire. Vladimir Putin is on record for making a more stronger Russia, which includes some imperial overtones. They are also have North Ossetia, Chechnya and other internal territorial issues. They feel if one of these states break away, then Russia will fragment just like Yugoslavia.
It does not help the situation, for NATO to start putting patriot missile batteries in Poland. Russia has already said, prior to the NATO approval yesterday, that they will put missiles in Cuba in response to a radar detection system in the Czech Republic. Meanwhile, Eastern Europe still remember the spectre of Soviet troops occupying their homeland and the Georgia incursion is bring back vivid memories of the Warsaw Pact days. For Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and Moldova even more fear. Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovak Republic, Bulgaria and Romania are also looking over their shoulder at at emboldened Russia. Not a very calming situation.
So, the US, NATO and Europe speaking harsh words to Russia is not going to accomplish anything. Angering the Russians, could only ignite at minimal an energy war with Europe (turning off gas and oil pipelines), to another Cold War or even to World War III. It is time to get everyone to the table and talk before things deteriorate to a point of no return.
— Posted by Nick
52.
August 15th,200812:06 pm
Bush doesn’t know why Georgia matters unless someone in his administration tells him why it matters. As a leader, he has no moral authority.
I wouldn’t follow him into a restaurant.
— Posted by marik7
53.
August 15th,200812:06 pm
Its not about freedom or democracy or terrorists or God. When you hear or read about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or Georgia - think OIL.
Just follow the oil - it runs the show.
— Posted by Jim Klier
54.
August 15th,200812:07 pm
Hey, let’s not let schadenfreude of a discomfited Bush Administration blind us to the larger picture. I find the irony of Bush and McCain saying “nations don’t invade other nations” as delicious as anyone else does, but this is pretty clearly a bid by the Russians to (1) cow former Warsaw Pact states that have shown themselves unwilling to go back to toeing Moscow’s line and (2) finish consolidating their control over Caspian energy resources, the better to control European energy supplies. Little surprise that Poland–old pals of the Russians–suddenly moved ahead with plans to bring American troops onto their soil. They want the American tripwire that West Germany had during the Cold War.
I agree that this has been a lousy Administration. But even people you hate can be right every now and again. Russia’s invasion is bad intrinsically and for what it portends. We shouldn’t be going to war over this, but a tough diplomatic line is warranted. And if we take this opportunity to start a joint G-7 program to develop alternative energy, in a few years we might not have to be worry about the Russians freezing a quarter of Europe at will.
— Posted by Jason
55.
August 15th,200812:08 pm
This has nothing to do with securing liberty for the Georgian people; and has everything to do with our President’s ego. Lord help us!
— Posted by Phil
56.
August 15th,200812:11 pm
BILL, BILL, BILL! Israel didn’t attack Lebanon, it attacked Hezbollah which set it’s bunkers in Lebanon, in resident buildings, and in peasant villages. And though I by no means justify Russia “bullying” Giorgia, according to a recent nytimes article, “tormented” Russia on it’s borders before this violent reaction occured.
— Posted by Herzl
57.
August 15th,200812:12 pm
The theme of this article is “Why Georgia Matters to Americans”. The real answer to that question is that there is an election coming up. Most Americans are far too focused on problems in the economy to worry some far away place that they’ve never heard of until now. In fact they are so focused on the problems in the economy that they are unlikely to re-elect a republican to be the next president.
So maybe the think tank in the Whitehouse has come up with the idea of creating a military conflict just before the election - and with some sort of quick military victory - people will forget about the economy and focus instead on the victorious leadership coming from the Whitehouse? That’s why Georgia should matter to the American public. The country may be dragged into World War III for the sake of winning an election.
— Posted by Robert Laden
58.
August 15th,200812:12 pm
Elizabeth # 10, you’re right on.The belligerent Bush seems capable of starting conflicts and engaging in illegitimate wars and occupation.He is however incapable of balancing budgets, correcting trade deficits, maintaining a strong dollar, keeping government expenditures within reason, improving American infrastructure, and improving America’s overall quality of life.This failure of a president faults Russia for making war and occupying a country, which is the height of hypocrisy (Iraq). John McCain simply must not replicate the worst president in history who needs to be prosecuted for war crimes.
— Posted by Chuck
59.
August 15th,200812:13 pm
Bush cares about democracy? That’s a surprise, considering how much he and his minions have done to dismantle ours in the USA. Wasn’t it he who said that running a dictatorship would be a heckuva lot easier???
— Posted by Boo Boo Benson, PhD
60.
August 15th,200812:20 pm
After 8 years of Cheney/Rove/Bush, I thought it would be obvious to all that this Georgian affair is a just a little political theater staged to benefit the candidacy of John McCain.
— Posted by Patrick
61.
August 15th,200812:21 pm
The Busheviks would like to start a new Cold War to enrich the military-industrial-security complex and to justify their police-state measures in the USA.
Remember that the first Bush who afflicted us as president, George H.W. Bush, tried mightily to prevent the breakup of the Soviet Union. Certainly an evil man but also no dummy, Bush I knew of Shakespeare’s advice that rulers should “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels.” He didn’t want to lose his best adversary. But he did.
Now that the USSR is gone, Al Qaeda barely exists (if it ever did), and Dat Debbil Saddam Hussein has been exposed as a non-threat, the Busheviks are desperately seeking new “enemies” to justify their crimes against America and the world.
Until China comes online, Russia has been elected.
— Posted by Miles
62.
August 15th,200812:30 pm
What we can expect–when we incessantly push Russia to a corner by grabbing the nations around its boarder into NATO, a military organ? Are we really expecting that Russia would just sit there watching us taking one step after another to encroach upon their sense of pride? Russia today may have all the problems, but they deserve some space and time to evolve after the collapse of the USSR Empire. Instead, they have to endure constant scolding by the West, including the militaristic John McCain. We have to realize that Russia’s history, geography, and its brilliant population will not allow it being forced into a third rate status. It’s stupid for us to keep collecting token nations like Georgia under our wings while risking a far more consequential relationship with Russia.
— Posted by horsham
63.
August 15th,200812:32 pm
It’s all about oil and pipelines in Georgia, and if we are ‘protectors’ and an ally, Bush buddies are better off. We don’t mess in Darfur because we don’t want to challenge China’s oil interests, and we don’t want to have to deal with Russia about Georgia oil.They should also change one of the G’s to a J—–save some people from looking for tanks in Atlanta.
— Posted by m d green
64.
August 15th,200812:34 pm
I actually agree with the idea of supporting democracy. But Bush dilutes that argument by mixing in Iraq — he makes it sound like a quid pro quo. So much for principle.
We also need to acknowledge our own role in setting up the world stage for this to happen. Our disastrous lack of an energy policy for the last 28 years — we had fair warning under Carter, and punished him for being the messenger — has empowered a league of frenemies around the globe that extends well beyond the Middle East to include Russia. Russia would be in no position to bully Georgia (and would have significantly less reason to) if the world had freed itself from oil.
— Posted by Gene Koo
65.
August 15th,200812:35 pm
It is necessary to KNOW about a country “half a world away” because not only is it is good to build up one’s knowledge base, but also because Georgia has a longer history as a nation than the US as such; and lastly because in a system instability has a reverberating effect an a war half a world away where pipelines are involved is bound to have DIRECT impact on commodities.
On another note, I find it highly presumptuous to equate elections with a FUNCTIONING democracy as both concepts are not necessarily mutually inclusive!Furthermore, to qualify it as successful… in 5 years a country would have mastered a concept with which most societies (the Western world ones included) are still trying to master.
Lastly, I find it dangerous to play on the fears of some countries neighbouring Russia to encourage militaristic paranoia (with this missile shield). Cold War habits seem to die hard!
— Posted by Fran
66.
August 15th,200812:36 pm
Perhaps Russia thought that Georgia has weapons of mass destruction … and that Georgian leaders are connected to the terrorists who have attacked various sites in Moscow and elsewhere…? After all, Bush and Cheney have made it very clear that such beliefs–correct or not–are a fully legitimate casus belli.
— Posted by David Winter
67.
August 15th,200812:38 pm
Bush has been played again. I bet he is a regular ATM at the poker table.
— Posted by speedtheplow
68.
August 15th,200812:41 pm
A pushy, ideological, and badly managed foreign policy played into smarter hands. Now the namesake of the doctrine, the most despised man on the planet, unleashes another tinny alpha prep-star howl. Want to turn Iraqiranistan into a gigantic proxy tiff with the Bear? Mission accomplished!
— Posted by Craig
69.
August 15th,200812:50 pm
This is the inevitable result of the U.S. losing all moral authority in the international community, due to its immoral wars and tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan (and indeed over many years prior).
Russia is now behaving like the bullies they have always been. Too bad that there is no nation with any moral authority left to stop them.
Cry havoc.
— Posted by Jen
70.
August 15th,20081:00 pm
So good to see #3 suggesting that what goes around comes around. If the Bush administration had stood beside Lebanon then, as it is standing beside Georgia now, it’s argument might carry some weight. As things stand, though, the most recent Bush statement-threat is just so much wasted breath.
— Posted by old-timer
71.
August 15th,20081:06 pm
next up.
Castro jr. cement deal for Russian sub refueling station
Chavez cement previously discussed Russian army base outpost in Venuzuela, and reignite calls for‘gas OPEC’
Taiwan, rejected by NATO, agreed to become a Georgian commonwealth
China and Russia, via mutual defense pact of 01, agrees to liquidate u.s. treasuries
— Posted by lting77
72.
August 15th,20081:07 pm
When has Bush taken the right position on any matter, whether international or domestic? His judgment is as perfectly flawed as his words are full of lies. The situation between Russia and Georgia has nothing to do with democracy or democratic ideals, or national sovereignty, but it has all to do with the geopolitical disposition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia has no claim to these two break away provinces whose allegiance is to Russia, with whom they most likely belong in both geopolitical and cultural terms. Russia’s response to Georgia’s military attack is far less over-the-top than Georgia’s ongoing intervention into the lives of people who despise them. History will view Georgia as the culprit in this episode with Bush’s America as its enabler.
— Posted by Butch Dillon
73.
August 15th,20081:11 pm
I think Bush could do a better job. He seems incapable of talking about complicated subjects. why do our leaders insist we can’t understand global politics? Why do they always have to dumb it down for us?
From what I understand there was violence before Georgian forces sent in the troops, violence that was entirely funded by Russia. This is no simple matter. Lets try not to simplify.
And yes, I think this is partly about oil and partly about defending another of Russia’s neighbor from Russian un-democratic control. But this again needs to be analyzed critically. Can be about both oil and human rights/democracy. Perhaps the two priorities need not be stand alone issues.
American’s should be able to consider the issues. I do wish Bush would give them the chance to.
— Posted by Jasmine
74.
August 15th,20081:21 pm
For GWB it’s a dream to use Georgia to complete the loop of surrounding Russia through the Missile defence system.The other members in loop are Poland and Czech republic.Russia knows the game well enough and for the very reason will now stay put in Gerogia for good through their own military bases in South Ossetia & Abkhajia.
— Posted by Arun Mehta
75.
August 15th,20081:25 pm
Just because the butcher of Fallujah claims Georgia is a democracy, does not make it so. President W. Bush has no idea what democracy means. Iran’s democracy is more functional and representative than Georgia’s, but W. Bush wants to start war with Iran using a Pearl Harbor-like sneak attack.
— Posted by Idi
76.
August 15th,20081:25 pm
Why should Americans care about democracy in Georgia? The same reason why we care about democracy in Iraq. It has nothing to do with lofty goals of democratization, and everything to do with oil geopolitics. See the NYT article below.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14oil.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=oil%20georgia&st=cse&oref=slogin
— Posted by Nice try
77.
August 15th,20081:26 pm
In all things political, governmental,negotiable….reaction breeds over-reaction breeds confusion breeds circular dysfunction.
— Posted by Will
78.
August 15th,20081:30 pm
I can relate to the plight of a small democracy like Georgia as I have seen first hand the brutal occupation of Hungary in 1956 by Russian (pardon, Soviet) thugs when I was a child, masquerading as liberators. It is truly sad that after 50 years we see the same uncivilized instincts and outright lies displayed under a supposedly enlightened Russian leadership. If the West does not learn from history, we are bound to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. There is only one way to deal with a schoolyard bully….give him a bloody nose, i.e there should be serious consequences in Russia’s standing in international institutions!
Regards,
Joe LakiHouston, Tx
— Posted by Joe
79.
August 15th,20081:31 pm
I feel so much better after reading most of these entries. Finally some informed intelligent comments, instead of rants. The pipeline is what is important to this administration and most of Europe. It is the only one that is controlled by big western oil companies. This administration believes that it is more intelligent than the populace it governs and that it is their paternalistic right and duty to keep our economy safe. To do this their point of view following the dots all the way back to Kissinger is that the world is a giant chessboard of power and that they know how to move the pieces to maintain control and power over the globe. Perhaps the definition of foriegn policy. The question we all need to ask ourselves is what is worth the price of so much death and destruction in an undending cycle of escalation. Is there perhaps something we all could do without that would make us safer instead of just an ever upward aspiration to more stuff? If we cannot find a new path or definition of what is important and meaningful to human life we better get ready for some really horrifying wars and unimaginable death tolls. If Americans were so overwhelmed with 9/11 how will they handle real war?I think the danger pointed out by someone that we are incredibly vulnerable from cyber attack is very astute. When will are media start doing any real work again? People need to know the whole story to truly be informed and not make snap judgements from small snippets of information.Posted by Christine Willis
— Posted by Christine Willis
80.
August 15th,20081:34 pm
Bush always loves to wear a coat written “International Police” on its back. Every time he demonstrates his action as a truth with an excuse of so-called pretecting Democracy. In Iraq, with such slogan, he sent hundreds of thousands American troops there to overturn its government. In the end, congradulations to him,he succeeded, then does he truly bring Democracy, peace or prosperity as he said to Iraq? This time on Georgia issue, he acts as before. What does he really intend to? What benefits does he want to get for the U.S.? How many more people does he would like to sacrifice? Knowing only by himself.
— Posted by bonnie
81.
August 15th,20081:38 pm
What a joke, Bush cares about Georgia for one reason and one reason only, a potential oil pipeline. He does not even believe nor care about democracy in america so why would he care about it a half a world away?Hes run this country as illegal and as sadistic as any dictator or tyrant could the last 7+ years and judging from his actions this week (see the gutting of the endangered species act) nothing is going to change the last 4 months either.Please stop printing this idiots lies, its getting rather tiresome.
— Posted by norm
82.
August 15th,20081:38 pm
So territorial integrity for Georgia? What about Serbia vis a vis Kosovo? Am I missing something here? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
— Posted by Hopper
83.
August 15th,20081:38 pm
It is nothing about democracy or friendship. Countries are not friend or to be trusted by eye in the eye talk. The relationship between countries is only related to interest, mutual or individually expressed.There is the economical strategic importance of the localisation of Georgia between the oil fields and the Caspian Sea, which enables it to be a gateway of abundant oil to the West, and the fact that the Georgian govnt has put himself under the influence of U.S. international policy, by opening its borders economically and accepting US rules on govnmt rule and to emphasize it, offered his soldiers to fight in foreign wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, thus enabling them to receive US military training and weapons. It is clearly a US satellite, as the abkhazians and south ossetian are russian puppets.We are presencing a first sign of imminent conflict between two big superpowers, the russians trying to restore the soviet empire, Putin’s style, with ex-KGB on comanding positions, and the Bush administration being carried by its self desastrous policy of war and intimidation to the world.The russian are dealing the cards, as they did with the trap they prepared for the georgians, and the republican USA is the next fool to fall in this bigger trap.The rest of the world, democratic or not, will pay for this duel of pride of the two superpowers.Let’s hope they hesitate to start a bigger conflict and leave the hard work of putting the house in order to the democrat party, i.e. Obama, who, despite being patriot american, are above all citizens of the world and have more common sense.By the way, NYTimes covering on this conflict is very short and narrow minded, compared to, for instance the french Le Figaro, where you can find more profound and neutral political, economical, strategic and military analysis.Luiz G. Moraes, from Rio, Brazil.
— Posted by Luiz G. Moraes
84.
August 15th,20081:42 pm
Something terrible is happening in Russia and will affect the whole world. Only The United States and European Union can block the hunger for territories of this dictatorship that seems to dream with the “glory” of a sovietic union past.The world is facing something more destructive than the “cold war”. In the past, we had more clear boundaries between two great ideologies. Now we are seeing the explosion of the small values (race, religion and pure greed). The international community has to give all the support against this powerful threat!
— Posted by Cristovam Santo - Brazil
85.
August 15th,20081:45 pm
Its outrageous that those Russians dare,To bully, intimidate there,We have primary rights,For invasion sites,Preemptives in Georgia ain’t fair!
— Posted by Larry Eisenberg
86.
August 15th,20081:45 pm
Why don’t we let the South Ossetians and Abkhazians decide which country they want to join? Wouldn’t that be the most democratic way to solve this crisis?
Abkhazia and South Ossetia were bundled into Georgia by the Communist dictator Josef Stalin. Why did he do it? Because he was Georgian — born in Gori with the name Iosef Dzhugashvili.
Iosef Dzhugashvili didn’t care what the South Ossetians wanted. He hated them in fact. He did what was good for Georgia.
I hate it that Bush is fighting to reinforce an evil decision made by the evil dictator Stalin, and trying to paint Putin as a Stalinist while he’s going it.
It’s the Georgians who admire Stalin. They honor Stalin as a native son in Gori.
Stalin never gave the South Ossetians the right to self-determination.
If we’re against Stalinism and for democracy, then we should be calling for this issue to be settled by a democratic referendum with international observers in the two regions that want to break away from Georgia.
— Posted by Patricia
87.
August 15th,20081:48 pm
It is disturbing to me to see so many Americans are reapeating this Kremlin-style argument of “but the Americans too”.
As someone who has lived under a dictatorship, I can say yes, there IS a difference. There is a world of difference between a country like Iraq under Saddam’s genocidal regime and a free country like Georgia. Georgia is a member of the international community, it has for years made countless efforts to negotiate with the South Ossetians and Abkhasians and has offered them sweeping autonomy. Its leadership has always been willing to negotiate and cooperate and still is.
Putting Iraq and Georgia into the same pot would be like putting Canada and North Korea into the same pot - the difference is NOT in the details, the difference is real.
I suggest that you spend a few years living in Zimbabwe or North Korea, compare and contrast that experience with your life in a free country and then think again whether all sovereign nations are created equal.
— Posted by Diana
88.
August 15th,20081:54 pm
Georgia, this ‘beacon of democracy and freedom’, received universal condemnation back in November of 2007 after it shut down newspapers and television stations and began jailing it’s political opponents.
Quite a beacon we’ve aligned ourselves with.
Is it really a smart move to become wedded to a slightly unhinged leader, Saakashvili, (who can’t seem to open his mouth without either exaggerating or distorting the truth) who thinks nothing of invading a secessionist region believing that the West has ‘got his back’.
This guy will get us into a shooting war with Russia.
— Posted by Colin King
89.
August 15th,20081:54 pm
One difference between the US in Iraq and Israel in Lebanon is that neither the US nor Israel intended to anex the country. Russia is essentially invading the provinces in Georgia and will assimilate them back into Russia. Now if the US were to claim Iraq as it’s soverign land or if Israel were to annex Lebanon there would be a much larger outcry (similar to that which still exists over Palestine).
I feel that a part of the reason the Russians are doing this is not so much Georgia, but so that when they tell Poland that they will attack Poland if Poland allows instalation of US interceptor missles then Poland has to take their threat seriously.
— Posted by RayV
90.
August 15th,20081:54 pm
“Meanwhile in South Ossetia trouble stirred up from across the Russian border in North Ossetia led to a large-scale rising against the Georgians. The latter, who had never liked the Ossetians, repressed it ruthlessly. Thousands of Ossetians were killed and many thousands more sought refuge across the Soviet border, with the result that the whole of this already sensitive and strategically important frontier area became a potential powder-keg.”
Also:
“But this time Soviet troops were already massing on the Georgian frontier for a full-scale invasion. A detailed plan of attack had been drawn up a couple of months earlier by A. I. Gekker, the Commander of the Eleventh Red Army. It was put into execution during the second week of February 1921. On 11 February disorders broke out simultaneously in the Lori district ……etc.”
Does this all sound familiar? It happened in 1920-1921 according to Fitzroy Maclean in his book, “To Caucasus, The End of all the Earth.
Nothing has changed in the Caucasus for over two thousand years; anyone who thinks it will change now because of fancy speeches is arrogant beyond belief.
— Posted by Edward Foss
91.
August 15th,20081:57 pm
Bill (#3) shows a complete lack of understanding of the Middle East conflict, as well as the current situation in Georgia. Hezbollah attacked Israel.Hezbollah is a terroist organization. Hezbollah has no interest in living in harmony with Israel. What would the US do if it had a group like Hezbollah on its border? Why must someone always drag Israel into a conflict it has nothing to do with?
— Posted by Mike
92.
August 15th,20082:00 pm
Too bad we can’t get the Russians to invade Afghanistan again…instead.
— Posted by John
93.
August 15th,20082:05 pm
Not all democracies are worth fighting for, just as not all businesses are worth investing in. Georgia is a divided, backwards democratic nation fixated on ethnic stereotypes and engaged in systematically alienating a minority of dissenting peoples.
Actually, I guess we have more in common with them than I first thought. Bring it on! I would love to experience two cold wars in my lifetime!!
— Posted by Mike
94.
August 15th,20082:08 pm
People of Georgia!
I respect you genuine inspirations for freedom and independence, but do you really want Bush/Saakashvili as your ideals and leaders? Don’t you think you may deserved better than that?
Do you, Georgian people, have a choice? I do feel very sorry for your options at this point.
— Posted by Sergei
95.
August 15th,20082:15 pm
The powerful will decide despite our opinions or actions. Darfur has oil. Iraq has oil. Afghanistan has poppy fields. War is inevitable, so grab a bag of popcorn, sit bag and watch the show.
— Posted by Derrek
96.
August 15th,20082:19 pm
Thank god Russia moved into Georgia and stoped all the killing. Killing two thousand people must be stoped. It should have been Bush that had the courage to move against Georgia.
— Posted by James Hanson
97.
August 15th,20082:21 pm
Too bad New Orleans does not matter to George Bush as Georgia.
— Posted by Simon
98.
August 15th,20082:25 pm
With all due respect to Mr. Bush as the president and defender of young democracies I think it is reasonable to underscore how greedy he and his administration seeks the ways to provocate Russia. They even have tried almost all possible steps that could make angry any peacefull and quiet politicians. Perhaps Washington waits reciprocal actions. Washington awaits from Russia establishing mylitary presence in Cuba and Venezuela or even support Iran nuclear program. One is clear, that Georgia’s army, goverment and saakashvili himself played in this game as a puppets. The very interesting thing is that those puppets thought that they played their own game…
— Posted by Alexey (Russia)
99.
August 15th,20082:36 pm
In response to Joe Lane: Bush has NOT been an “awful failure” as president. He’s been an EXCELLENT failure, and he’s sprinting to the finish line for the worst ever title.
— Posted by Charlie Parker
100.
August 15th,20082:38 pm
That utterances still issue forth from Mr. Bush’s lips proclaiming the virtues of freedom and democracy and how these virtues should apply to everyone and everything else but him provides the world an unhindered view into the labryrinths of Bush’s twisted soul. That any of us would take Mr. Bush at his word is ludicrous The references we constantly hear to a ‘post 9/11 mindset and world’ by the mainstream right-wing media holds many chilling truths. The world changed drastically that day as it was intended to, particularly with the current administration’s announcement that we were now an empire and, as such, we would create our own reality. Any overview of the last seven plus years bears out the irrefutable implications and truths of that statement and should be a cause of great concern for the citizens of this country, especially when one takes into consideration that empires by their definition constitute a government ruled by an emperor. Since 9/11, no one in the executive branch of our government, save Scooter Libby, has been held accountable for any questionable transgressions of the rule of law nor have they been challenged for malfeasant conduct that borderlines treason; affairs of government are increasingly classified as state’s secrets and withheld from public view, secret tribunals oversee trade pacts, so called ‘non-treaties’ are negotiated secretly among the various heads of state and suddenly almost every citizen is subject to being regarded as a danger to the state. The most shocking aspect of our ‘new Orwellian reality’ is that it has been brought to us by the man who claims divine appointment to export democracy and freedom to the rest of the world at the point the of a gun.
— Posted by Edward Barnard
101.
August 15th,20082:40 pm
Ummm…just the small matter of what moral right do we have to dictate that Russia leave Georgia when we’ve been parked in Iraq (under false pretenses, I may add) for 5 years? Hypocrites!
— Posted by jr
102.
August 15th,20082:42 pm
Maybe Bush is so mad because he thinks the Russians invaded the Peach State, not the country :-)
— Posted by jr
103.
August 15th,20082:42 pm
to # 21:
Saakashvili and Putin, too, have a lot in common. Both prefer strong authoritarian remedies. The only difference is that Georgian society has democratic traditions, so Georgian folks would go to the streets if their patience reached limits; Russian society lacks these traditions, people are in its majority passive (unless their patience REALLY reached limits, then they do ‘unproportional’ things). Georgian parliament is a real parliament, so it seems to me from the distance, while Russian parliament today is just an extension of Kremlin hand.
But the power in both countries is in complete control of their leaders, and there is a little difference between Russia and Georgia in this respect. Both leaders can do whatever they like inside their own countries. Put a person into prison, intimidate, put any kind of pressure, grab the property, etc., not imaginable in real democratic countries.
I was really astonished today to hear the US-Polish agreement on missiles deployment was hastily signed. That move was realy unnecessary, since now it’s difficult to argue that the missiles will be directed to Russia. It will add more tension to the situation.
What is missing from all the coverage of the conflict is that the younger generation in Russia, these born in the post-Soviet Russia, will store this anti-Russian ‘matrix’ in their memories for a long time, and it would hamper the relations between Russia and the USA (West?) in a long-term perspective.
In my opinion, ‘punish’ or ‘isolate’ Russia in this situation would lead nowhere. In reverse, exchange of opinions, meetings, talks on all possible levels would help more.
Frédéric Bastiat who lived in France in 19 century wrote something like: ‘Where goods do not cross borders, soldiers will’. In the wired world like ours, this is yet valid, possibly also in other forms.
It is not true that Russian decision-making people are stubborn and want a global conflict with the West, I am sure they do not want it. But what contributes to the tension is the words spoken by Saakashvili. No one expect him to apologise to Russians, but why to insult Russians all the time, even when their tanks are within 40 miles from Tbilisi? He does it all the time. My guess is that if Saakashvili would have sound less offensive, the Russians had left the ‘mainland’ Georgia already two days ago. If you read the interview with some Russian officer, pubilshed in NYT recently, you’ll get the same opinion, I think.
— Posted by Valery Yakushev
104.
August 15th,20082:43 pm
Do u guys think Bush really “cares” which country has “democracy” and “freedom of speech” etc ??… Its all about the Oil - Black Gold! The strip of land between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea is one among the most Oil Rich Lands in the World - unexplored due to constant conflict and unstable governments. Bush pretends to be an ardent supporter of “Democracy” in the world at large - while the American People pay the price for that. All that is happening in Georgia, is just Political drama and Diplomacy to gain control of the Black Gold!
Bush is doing to the american economy , what is done to a patient suffering from cardiac arrest at the Hospitals - they try all possible immediate measures to just get the patient to be alive - the treatment comes in later - So, here everything is being done to get the American economy up and running again - OIL is crucial - When we have it from elsewhere, the way we always used to - then they will see to it that the economy functions alright - given that the support systems are in place again.
Its just very unfortunate that the people and government of Georgia, have to suffer and pay for this. Russia has always been wanting to gain control of these territories for its own motives, and this is their opportunity.
All the billions that have been wasted in defense and war in Iraq, and more elsewhere, could have been put to good use in research and development into renewable sources of energy - the Oil will eventually fade out in any case - if not in the next 100 yrs, then in the following 100 to come. ALL WAR is eventually a rush for power, and control, and temporary settlement of one country’s economic problems at the expense of the rest of the world.
— Posted by Avanti
105.
August 15th,20082:46 pm
Neighbouring countries should never be allowed on peacekeeping missions.
The problem we have now in Georgia with the Russians has happened before in Africa.
We failed to learn from it. We failed to make rules. And now we are paying the price.
Neighbouring countries have a conflict of interest, their is usually bad history, and to keep things safe, neighbouring countries should never be allowed on peacekeeping missions.
If they want to help, they can help from their own side of the border.
— Posted by Keith S
106.
August 15th,20082:52 pm
The Attack on Georgia is yet another lesson that no country should have veto power on the UN Security Council.
What is killing the UN is the current world’s greatest imperialists and war mongers, countries that refuse to recognize the World Court, countries that fail to prosecute their own war criminals, have veto power at the UN Security Council. And all UN peace making power is concentrated in the SC. The General Assembly is powerless.
Only when America and China are prepared to give up their vetos, and to shame Russia, can the situation improve.
— Posted by Keith S
107.
August 15th,20083:10 pm
As CDW said, Bush recognized a kindred spirit when he saw Putin’s soul in his eyes.
But we have to remember, just because the USA is an imperialistic war-worshipping country doesn’t excuse Russia.
The USA has Bush somewhat under control. In a few months, Bush will be gone from power.
That leaves the world with Putin to deal with.
Russia absorbs any buffer you allow it.
Russia gives its border states no choice, join NATO or we’ll force you to join us.
— Posted by Keith S
108.
August 15th,20083:11 pm
if the U.S. decides to take Kosovo from Serbia, then the Russians can decide to take these two provinces. two wrongs don’t make a right, but Bush can’t create his own laws and keep others from doing the same. there’s a positive side to what’s happening with Russia: the U.S. can no longer make decisions that affect the rest of the world without thinking “how will Russia respond to this.”
— Posted by AnnaMaria
109.
August 15th,20083:13 pm
If the South Ossetians were to vote in an internationally supervised referendum to leave Georgia and join with Russia, would American conservatives be willing to accept that as a democratic decision and support that decision in the name of freedom and democracy?
Do South Ossetians have the right to democracy too?
— Posted by Patricia
110.
August 15th,20083:14 pm
To Mr. Dillon and All Those Who Agree With Him,
CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE HISTORY OF THIS REGION BEFORE ASSERTING THESE TYPES OF OPINIONS?!?
The Ossetians were invited by King David The Builder of Georgia in the 11th Century to inhabit and protect the northern border of Georgia. Originally, Abkhazians were a tribe of ethnic Georgians who had inhabited that region for thousands of years. The region has had an influx of other ethnicities totally unrelated to Georgians within the past few centuries. The Georgians refer to these people as ‘Absus’, and they have not been friendly to the native population there and are now claiming this territory as their native homeland. The Russians have been more than happy to support them in an effort to undermine Georgian sovereignty.
The title afforded Queen Tamar, the ruler of Georgia at the height of its power in the 12th century, was identified as “King of Kings and Queen of Queens of the Abkhazians, Kartvelians, Arranians, Kakhetians, and Armenians; Shirvanshah and Shahanshah; Autocrat of all the East and the West, Glory of the World and Faith; Champion of the Messiah”.
The Russians did not have influence in this region until the forced annexation of the autonomous Georgian state at the beginning of the 19th Century.
— Posted by Jason
111.
August 15th,20083:17 pm
It seems that Bush wants to involve us in another war, this time maybe a world war. First he pushed Kosovo into NATO over Russia’s objections, Then he parks missiles in Russia’s “front Yard” meaning Poland and the Chech Republic, for no other reason than to annoy Russia again. Poland in its infinite wisdom agreed to accept the missiles, planes and 100 American advisors. Don’t they see in the Georgian example that America is not running to help, in fact cannot help without provoking an international incident? I understand that Bush is helping (he thinks) to ge McCain elected with all these useless and dangerous machination. Which young Americans will volunteer to go to war for another oil pipe? Besides, McCain looks and sounds like an ancient politician ready to sacrifice us for his ambitions. Having been involved with the Georgian lobby was not enough?
— Posted by Freda
112.
August 15th,20083:18 pm
The United States urgently needs to search its soul and recognize that it cannot continue on this path of military conflict, threats, ultimatums and constant turmoil. This country must begin to disabuse itself of the hubristic belief that only its interests are important and that no other countries’ interests matter. This attitude of superiority permeates in the air of this nation, and it afflicts our political leaders, the opinion makers, the mainstream press and, undoubtedly, millions of ordinary Americans. This believe in the superiority of our interests led the Bush administration to the disaster in Iraq. The MSM, including The New York Times, lent ample support to this misadventure in the months before Bush undertook the invasion of Iraq. There was almost no questioning or skepticism because our ingrained righteousness would not allow any doubt about our right to assert our supremacy anywhere in the world. In the case of Georgia and Russia, it is almost elementary that we cannot claim any geographical or strategic interest in the area unless we have in mind to encircle and humiliate the Russians. Bush cannot claim that the Russians are unjustified in defending their interests in the face of the bellicose maneuvers by the Georgian president. Bush cannot act surprised at the Russian reaction after months of provocations, not only by Saakashvili but by Bush himself who proposed having Georgia admitted to NATO as quickly as possible and by Bush’s obsession in placing anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic, practically at the doorstep of Russia. Therefore, if we all stop and think for a moment, we should be able to see that this problem is not all Russia’s. America actually bears the largest share.
— Posted by Carfer
113.
August 15th,20083:25 pm
Georgia is a satellite of the neo-cons that can be relied upon to do whatever they want. That is really why it matters to Bush. If Putin is elected with 70% of the vote, it’s proof that Russia elections are a fraud, but if Saakashvili is elected with over 90% of the vote, that just proves how much his people love him. Right!
Just when I thought the Bushies could not be any more delusional and fraudulent, they outdo themselves with the ceaseless wailing over Georgia. I find it hard to believe that the U.S. government didn’t know what Saakashvili was up to, but it really doesn’t matter. The Bushies simply react in this case the same way they have with every issue - never mind the facts, just assert that whatever you want to be true really is true and ignore reality.
This disaster of an adminstration can’t end soon enough.
— Posted by Steve Justus
114.
August 15th,20083:37 pm
The true enemies of American peace and prosperity are domestic: Limbaugh, Fox News, Hannity, and the like. They are the drum roll for American brutality and stupidity and DECLINE. It is time to throw out, not the Russians in South Ossetia, but the thugs in the Republican party.
— Posted by dissent
115.
August 15th,20083:38 pm
Where is our democratic discussion of this? Where is congress?
Saakashvili brought this on himself. How come no one in Congress has the guts to say that the Georgians started this, and as a consequence, this is NOT our fight?
— Posted by Reality Check
116.
August 15th,20083:46 pm
Saakashvili provoked this conflict and then sat back waiting to be bailed out by the US. It was an incredibly stupid miscalculation and it didn’t work.
Still, one thing did work. Saakashvili is playing George Bush like a fiddle. If it wasn’t for the tragedy touched off by these fools in Tblisi and Washington, DC this would actually be comic. What a pair.
Another positive aspect: Secretary Rice now has good use of her expertise in Russian history and political science. We can see the tremendous amount of good it is doing by studying the Russian reactions to President Bush’s ridiculous bombast.
— Posted by Youssef51
117.
August 15th,20083:47 pm
#91 ‘What would the US do if it had a group like Hezbollah on its border?’ The US does have a corrupt government living on its border, intent on subverting its neighbor to the Norte: Mexico. Drug lords, corrupt officials and police, hundreds of thousands of invading illegals supplanting the local US language [English]- and how does Bush and the rest of the US government act? They invite more and more to break the law by promising them instant citizenship.
The enemy of the American people resides not in Moscow, Afghanistan or Beijing: It resides within the walls of Congress and behind the desk at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
— Posted by mooranon
118.
August 15th,20083:48 pm
The only thing funnier than Bush scolding Russia as bullies is the fiesr comment by Priscilla Stevens.
— Posted by hugh
119.
August 15th,20083:55 pm
I can’t think of any possible strategy that Bush can apply to clean up a mess he has largely set in motion. Wasn’t it he and his stooge Condoleeza Rice who have repeatedly assured the Georgians that we would stand in their defense if they served as our proxy rep on that border? Wasn’t it he and the cadaver man Cheney who ramped up the shipment of materiel to Georgia? Wasn’t it he and his National Security Advisors who promised the Georgian’s that they would move into NATO partnership?
Fact is gentle readers that his Bushness is Putin’s Poodle. He is a small yapping lap dog with milk teeth who thinks he can impart fear in this country’s enemy.
Watching that fourth-rate preening little fop in his bespoke suits and his nattering neutered B-spokespeople pretending they are in control or have any power at all makes me want to puke.
— Posted by M. Simon
120.
August 15th,20084:01 pm
“Bush on Why Georgia Matters”
Let me guess — it probably has something to do with oil (for his friends to exploit).
— Posted by Sara B.
121.
August 15th,20084:07 pm
I notice that several people have stated how Russia’s incursion into Georgia is completely different than the US incursion into Iraq while most others on this blog seem to indicate that they don’t see any difference whatsoever. If Americans remain unconvinced about the difference then you can be absolutely sure that the average Russian isn’t going to see any difference either.
— Posted by larry
122.
August 15th,20084:08 pm
Can you see his soul now George?
Hmm. Maybe you did, at that.
— Posted by joea
123.
August 15th,20084:09 pm
Totally lost in Bush’s endless, sanctimonious posturing about the hostilities between Russia and Georgia is the fact that Georgia started it, doing so with American encouragement.
How? By invading South Ossetia, an indpendent area that has no interest in becoming part of Georgia. In fact, a high percentage of South Ossetians carry Russian passports. And when Georgia attacked, Ossetian victims didn’t greet Georgian troops as liberators but as enemies, fleeing in terror to Russia.
So Russia promptly called our bluff and proved what toothless tigers we’ve become. We deserve the disgrace, as much for our meddling as for our hubristic miscalculation at the inevitable outcome. [Did Bush really believe that Russia would sit idly by as U.S.-backed Georgia annexed one of Russia’s bordering allies?]
But do we ever learn? Not this Admininstration. An agreement was just announced to put an American missile defense shield in Poland, something that pleases the Russians about as much as it would please us if the USSR had put its own missile shield in Mexico, Canada or Cuba.
It is not for nothing that our founding fathers warned us never to stomp about the world in search of monsters to destroy.
— Posted by GaryA
124.
August 15th,20084:10 pm
If we all just stayed home and didn’t pay any attention to anything happening out of doors, we’d never, ever have any problems. Fighting the Revolutionary War against the British was our first mistake. If we had just done what we were told, there never would have been a Civil War, 1st World War, 2nd World War, or any other war during the intervening period.
Gosh, war is so silly, because people die and other bad stuff happens. So next time, just say no. That will solve the problem. We should all just be happy all the time and no one will ever suffer again! Joy!
— Posted by MARK KLEIN, M.D.
125.
August 15th,20084:27 pm
The Russians have handed their nation back to the Soviets. The Soviets will continue their occupation and annexation of surrounding territories until their reaching results in pulling back a bloody stub.
The faster that can be made to happen, the better for all of Eastern and Western Europe. In no way can the Soviet dictatorship be allowed a monopoly on the energy supplies of civilized free nations, the European leaders would be seen as complete fools if they allow this to continue.
— Posted by Bob
126.
August 15th,20084:29 pm
President Bush has no patience. He should have waited until the crisis was resolved before saying anything more about it in public. Right now we do not know what we can expect from our efforts. Presidential speeches about doctrines are fine but they are best stated after the successful resolution of a situation that brought about the development of that doctrine. This situation is still developing.
The announced cease-fire agreement was not, despite the signatures affixed. The negotiations between Russia and Georgia are not concluded over the clarifications attached to the document before both sides had agreed to it. It looks like the U.S. was in too much of a hurry to take the care needed to reach a solid agreement before announcing that a cease fire was in the making.
That would not be so bad had not the U.S. completed negotiations yesterday with to install defensive missiles in Poland. While Russia is full of beans to demand that Poland not do so, it would have been wiser to delay completing that agreement until the problem in Georgia was resolved. Now Russia might link the two issues, which could leave both unresolved and extend and broaden the crisis.
Instead of cease fire we could be witnessing an escalation of the violence in Georgia and military posturing intended to threaten Poland. Russia has the resources to do both, they are not committed in multiple places around the world as is the U.S. We cannot throw sufficient conventional forces against the Russians to deter them.
Russia and Georgia may reach a ceasefire and start productive negotiations, anyway, but why introduce factors which might prevent it?
We’ll have to wait to see what happens.
— Posted by Casual Observer
127.
August 15th,20084:41 pm
Will Putin now issue a statement on our troop presence in Iraq?
— Posted by janye
128.
August 15th,20086:50 pm
In all of this Nationalistic posturing…shouldn’t it matter that neither the South Ossetians or the Abkhazians want to be part of Georgia OR Russia?
Russia, is ostensibly doing this all for them, right? Otherwise, why would they be there?
Consider, for a moment, the Quebecois and Canadians had a nasty dispute, would that justify the US invading and annexing Quebec? (Since, after all, many of them do appear Caucasian and also speak English…).
In what way then could the Russian military be considered “peace-keepers” while one attempts to keep a straight face?
— Posted by Bob
129.
August 15th,20086:59 pm
How much credibility do we really have on theGeorgia issues after invading Iraq under falsepretences. Is Iraq next to our borders?
— Posted by David
130.
August 15th,20087:26 pm
It’s possible that US wanted to get on record that the West is committed to defend Poland - before the next Russian adventure is sprung - not after.
It should be made clear to Russia that Poland would be a major multi-year affair - not a brief skirmish with US volunteer forces. Our present involvements would not be a major factor. Should a war erupt between US and Russia it is not likely to be a conventional ground war.
Putin, living in the past remembers a Russia with little to lose. Russia today has vast energy production assets. It has vastly more financially critical, unpopulated targets than it did during the Cold War. If it decided to initiate a nuclear exchange its primary economic engines could be disabled and kept disabled for years.
It’s a bad scene but it isn’t going to get better by itself and history tells us we are better off confronting it early and hope that rational Americans, Europeans and Russians may still be able to grab the wheel.
— Posted by Ed Every
131.
August 15th,20087:54 pm
@#129 David,
If the US were talking about annexing Iraq in order to, say, “save” the Khurds from the Turks, and IF we were declaring ownership of all their their oil, I guess we wouldn’t have much credibility. Since that hasn’t happened in Iraq, and since, as advertized, Iraqis are taking over responsibility for their country, we ratain a lot of credibility.
On the other hand, if the country in question WERE on our border and it looked a lot like a hostile land grab in the name of peace, well then, we wouldn’thave much credibility at all would we?
— Posted by Bob